Big Guns

[RoyBatty]

They aren't specific though, handling a .22 pistol is a completely different ballgame than an assault rifle or sniper rifle, or a minigun. That particular argument doesn't hold weight with me, so I'm curious to see other valid ones. Energy weapons are also the same physically as ballistics ones, so Energy Weapons could be eliminated too and it just called Fire Arms. At that point, many of the Explosives weapons could also fall in that category. The Grenade Launcher and Rifle are infact... rifles that shoot center fire grenade rounds. So in vanilla there is a bit of overlap and blurring.

As for the plasma *caster* it's a caster not a rifle like the previous games, 2 hand handle not rifle grip. The Gatling Laser was moved to big guns by Fallout 3 because of the 2 hand handle thing. I would put them in that category just to give it a bit more weapons and usefulness.

Again this is all hypothetical, no decision has been made, nothing is written in stone.

[paragonskeep]

I don't typically use "big guns" but I'll throw in my 2 cents. 

Personally I'd make big guns ANY gun that requires two hands to wield. If it's cowboy or military there are perks for those. You're a vault dweller that becomes a courier. You didn't grow up as an outdoors hunter type or farmer or soldier so you should have to spend some points to use those weapons. The points after all is putting a numerical value on what you've learned. The only exception that one could argue is the flamer, point and click. But the argument could still be made for it to reflect not BBQing yourself. 

IF it could be made for overlap ie Plasma Caster is boosted by Big Guns and Energy I'd be all for it. 

Two handed weapons are going to be harder to use same as military will be harder to use than hunting, but not sure if the skills could reflect on the same types as the perks do (cowboy vs grunt)

My games I try to default to the more real the better (within Fallout Mythos and immersion)

Either way I'm here to play. 

[tghs]

It seems arbitrary to split guns into 3 categories instead of buffing big guns altogether. If you meet the strength requirement to wield them, you should be able to wreck shit with them.

[Risewild]

[quote=H1ms3lf]

 

I'm gonna be a bit bothersome and voice a small concern between everything that's "optional" or "by default".



It is usually better to have the stuff that everyone will (or should) be using to be the default. I'm not voicing pro/con any optionals, just wanna highlight what would be the best approach, player base wise. TTW policy conflicts with that sometimes.



There's supposed to be a "right way" (AKA best way), not literally, but a way that the main design was planned/executed/tested taking into account that set of conditions, which speaks volumes since a TON of time was spent tailoring the game to fit better into this set of conditions.



Like (I guess) most people, I try to always abide by what is default, since it is usually best/safer, but even above that: Default implies the way IT IS meant to be.



Back to this big guns deal, I'm not educated enough in TTW ways to make a decision, hope you guys can make the best of it =]

[/quote]

The main designed of Fallout New Vegas about removing Big Guns was because there wasn't many weapons for the skill and there wasn't low tier weapons either. But with the addition of some FNV DLCs + Fallout 3 and it's DLCs there are a much greater choice of Big Guns and there are low tier available (Rock-it Launcher)

 

[quote=DarthDaedric]

 

The Plasma Caster was not a Big Gun in Fallout 1/2 and should not be on that list. If you're going to do this, please keep it an energy weapon.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_rifle_(Fallout)

 

If your goal is consistency then the classic Plasma Rifle shouldn't be a big gun. It never has been and it doesn't make any sense to just change it to one now.

Overall, I really don't like the idea of restoring the Big Gun skill. It's totally superfluous with the strength requirements.

[/quote]

That doesn't really work when FNV already broke the consistency. In Fallout and Fallout 2 it weights 12lbs, in FNV it weights 20lbs, it is definitely a heavy weapon that weights almost twice as much as in the classic games.

[quote=tghs]

 

It seems arbitrary to split guns into 3 categories instead of buffing big guns altogether. If you meet the strength requirement to wield them, you should be able to wreck shit with them.

[/quote]

The thing is that in TTW, it is easy to max all skills to 100 even before reaching max level. Having another skill would balance that. So it is not really that arbitrary in a way.

At the moment people have been using mods to deal with the get all maxed before level 50, like skills 250 limit or other similar mods. But it is a bad design to have TTW not deal with it itself.

 

About compatibility, it was said already several times that this is not an issue. Also another benefit of having Big Skills by default is that we can revert the GOAT results to it's vanilla status (it had Big Guns answers), the bobblehead and the skill books to their original places (so it's closer to the FO3 experience) not to mention it seems like it would also be better for converting FO3 mods that have big guns or affect the skill (although I am not sure).

 

I am playing the devils advocate here just so people can get a different perspective, I don't have a preference to be honest. I am a melee/unarmed character fan and the only time I would use a weapon that would fit in this discussion would be when I wipe a LMG to kill some enemy out of range, so it doesn't matter if it is Guns or Big Guns to me because I wouldn't be investing on either skill to begin with xD

Keep your opinions coming, the team loves to hear from you .

 

[Risewild]

[quote=DarthDaedric]

The plasma caster is the same Plasma Rifle that was in Fallout 1/2. It was renamed to avoid confusion with the Fallout 3 plasma rifle. In the original fallouts, it wasn't a rifle like in 3 either, but it was an energy weapon and always has been. The Gatling Laser was simply a reskin of the minigun so that's why it made sense as a heavy weapon.

[/quote]

To be honest the Gatling Laser in Fallout 1 and 2 was also a energy weapon and not a Big Gun. But in FO3 the Big Guns definition changed, TTW is a fusion of both FNV and FO3 so I think if we implement the Big Guns skill again, it should follow the FO3 Big Guns definition and not be a mix (but that is my personal opinion, just like all of you share yours).

Again, I point out that in FNV the Plasma Caster is not the same as the classic games since it is almost twice as heavy as the ones from Fallout 1 and 2. To me it makes no sense a weapon that weights 20lbs to not be a big gun though, specially because it handles (you grab and hold it the same way, you aim the same way, etc) the same way as the Minigun or a Grenade machinegun ingame. If the Gatling Laser is included, I don't understand why the Plasma Caster shouldn't.

Today I woke up to play devil's advocate .

[tghs]

I support the idea now that I know it won't cause any compatibility issues. I too am trying to advocate for people who are against it.

It sounds like a wise design choice for having something else to skill up, sure, but if too many levels is such an issue why not increase all the skill caps instead?

Either way, I'd rather be playing TTW than Fallout 4 for hundreds of reasons so I'm just adding to the discussion :P

[RoyBatty]

[quote=tghs]

It sounds like a wise design choice for having something else to skill up, sure, but if too many levels is such an issue why not increase all the skill caps instead?

[/quote]

People have tried again and again to do it, but what do you do with lockpick, speech, science or any other non weapon skill over 100? There's no mechanism in the game to make use of it.

The plasma caster is a big gun to me, it's 2handhandle, weighs a lot, str req high. In Fallout 1 and 2 as Rise said it weighed 12 and the Turbo plasma weighed 14 and both had a 6 str requirement.

Speaking of str requirements, all weapons in the game have a str requirement, we would not alter that.

The survivial bobblehead would have an extra space made for it on the stand in the front row center. We'd have to figure out a new place to put it to find in the world. In addition to that a Big Guns magazine will be needed for the magazine system. The scout handbooks and lads life magazines will also need new places to be put in the world so the 30 Handy Flamethrower Recipes book and new Big Guns magazines can be put in the original positions.

What Rise says is true about the goat, and there is some Big Guns skill checks too. Also mods would indeed be easier to convert (which is a reason I've restored other things partially) and those are definitely Pros.

Another pro is that many people use TTW purely to play Fallout 3 in a more stable engine. Over the last year I've listened to them to make TTW more to their liking without making how TTW already works different for those who are used to it as is. It's setup in such a way that people can tailor the experience how they like. This would be yet another one of those things to allow people to tailor their experience.

Changing all 2 handed weapons to Big Guns is a big no, and as already stated multiple skills cannot effect the same weapon.

[Decker]

If it were at all possible, I would prefer Big Guns skill to be by default a bonus effect (Like a new levelled perk granted automatically upon reaching frex each full 20 points in Big Guns skill) added on top of pre-existing FNV weapon skills (to make big guns more practical/powerful to use) for just the Big Guns weapons listed, but since this is apparently not possible, I'd have to vote for optional.

Plasma Caster in F3/FNV seems definitely to be a perfect candidate for the Big Guns list IMHO.. LMG, Bozar, BAR and AMR being much more borderline cases - You do use them a lot like an assault rifle or a sniper rifle, just with higher Strength requirements. No big deal either way though IMHO, as even the default FNV weapon skill categories are quite wide and abstracted in their scope - Most important thing here is to let the player know precisely what skill is used for each weapon, otherwise there might be some confusion.

 

[H1ms3lf]

[quote=paragonskeep]

Personally I'd make big guns ANY gun that requires two hands to wield. 

[/quote]

That plus being a Big Weapon to start with (requires decent strength and are arguably ankward/slow, not exactly ease of use), as many weapons may require two hands but still be relatively easy to handle.

I would find it neat if the STR requirement could change to a slow % effect based on player strength, for example if X weapons requires 7 strength to use properly and player has 5, he can still use it but will get a 20% slower move/aim/reload while using that weapon, whereas a player with 3 STR would get say a 40% slow. Altough that may be hard to code and keep track/update on a real time basis (which means script heavy stuff which I'm normally against).

 

[quote=Risewild]

The main designed of Fallout New Vegas about removing Big Guns was because there wasn't many weapons for the skill and there wasn't low tier weapons either. But with the addition of some FNV DLCs + Fallout 3 and it's DLCs there are a much greater choice of Big Guns and there are low tier available (Rock-it Launcher)

[/quote]

Yo Rise :), I was talking more about TTW (since TTW is a new game in itself ^^) and the way some optionals could/should instead become defaults and some defaults be moved to optionals :P

[snarfies]

[quote=RoyBatty]

People have tried again and again to do it, but what do you do with lockpick, speech, science or any other non weapon skill over 100? There's no mechanism in the game to make use of it.

[/quote]

This problem kinda came up in Oblivion.  Mods came to the rescue:

• 
  http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/19245/?


• 
  http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/16441/?

That second mod actually triggers a new quest when your skill is high enough.  Of course, it'd mean somebody would have to invent something new, and its probably outside of TTW's scope.