Big Guns

[Lyndi]

I can see why the Gauss Rifle might be considered in Big Guns as it's basically the energy weapons counterpart of the AMR in terms of damage and usage. Since the Gauss only requires a strength of 5 I personally don't think it should be included.

With explosive weapons moved to Big Guns will weapons like the missile launcher and grenade machinegun still receive bonuses from Perks like Demolition Expert, Splash Damage, and Heave Ho? Obviously the perks would have to be changed to include these weapons as the perk currently targets the Explosives class and not individual weapons but would the current perks just be altered or would new perks be created?

[Decker]

AFAIK, the word 'Gauss' in gauss guns refers to gaussian curve (named after Carl Friedrich Gauss) - Basically this means a weapon that shoots ferrous projectiles via accelerating them with a series of precisely timed electromagnetic pulses - a pulsed magnetic field effect pushes a ferrous slug up to very high velocities. There are several possible different designs of gauss guns - 'Coil guns' use series of coils around a barrel and 'Railguns' use electromagnetic rails. Although coil gun tech is usually considered more practical for smaller weapons and railgun tech more practical for larger weapons (like modern day huge ship mounted railguns), it would still be entirely possible to have a small railgun or a big coil gun.

Fallout 3/FNV Gauss Rifle is a very high powered single shot sniper weapon. Based on the looks and weapon description info, it is a coil gun. It fires 2mm slugs, but uses such insane amounts of energy per shot that it actually eats up microfusion cells at a rapid rate, where the weight and cost of tiny 2mm projectile is insignificant compared to the cost and weight of Microfusion cells drained. This is why in the game this gun uses Microfusion Cells and not 2mm EC.. Based on all this, F3/FNV Gauss Rifle most definitely counts as a Big Gun type weapon, IMHO.

(M72 Gauss Rifle from Fallout 2 is also a coil gun, but it is more like a semi-auto assault rifle. Lower powered, higher rate of fire, same projectile type (2mm EC) - Uses up a lot less energy per shot so the actual 2mm slugs are used as it's ammo in the game. Functionally it is much like a conventional rifle with flatter trajectory, this is a Small Gun in the game, as it should be IMHO.)

 

[jlf65]

I like Roy's idea of classifying guns by how they are held. If it sits on the shoulder (like the rocket launcher), or it is slung underhand (like the minigun), it's a Big Gun. That SHOULD be the criteria, at least in my opinion.

@Decker, no, a rail gun does not "push" a projectile in the manner suggested. An electric potential is applied to one rail, and a different potential to the opposite rail. When a conductive projectile is laid across both rails, current flows through it, and that flow of current creates a turning force on the projectile, making it roll in one direction. The higher the current, the stronger the turning force, and the faster the projectile rolls. Make the rails long enough and the current high enough, the projectile can reach great speeds. Hence the name, "rail" gun.

[paragonskeep]

Metal Storm Limited has the closest (IMO) to a hand held "rail" Gun. This video is of a defensive gun but they've also made pistols.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso

Sorry that was off topic. 

Personally I think any gun that is over 15 pounds would be "Big Guns" OR if it requires more "specialized" training which I think the Gauss would qualify

[EnderDragonFire]

@Lyndi: The "Annabelle" rocket launcher has a strength requirement of 5, and it's going to be a Big Gun

@Paragon's Keep: The Recharger Rifle has 16 weight. If it become a "Big Gun" that would be insane. It is held like a Rifle, and functions like a weaker Laser Rifle with infinite ammo. 

So, having said both of those things, I think he criteria should be the GRIP. Ammo doesn't work, weight doesn't work, strenght  doesn't work, but grip would work. All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion. 

[Lyndi]

[quote=EnderDragonFire]

 

@Lyndi: The "Annabelle" rocket launcher has a strength requirement of 5, and it's going to be a Big Gun

@Paragon's Keep: The Recharger Rifle has 16 weight. If it become a "Big Gun" that would be insane. It is held like a Rifle, and functions like a weaker Laser Rifle with infinite ammo. 

So, having said both of those things, I think he criteria should be the GRIP. Ammo doesn't work, weight doesn't work, strenght  doesn't work, but grip would work. All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion. 

[/quote]

By your reasoning the AMR shouldn't be a Big Gun then either as it's handled like a rifle.

My point was that the AMR was being considered because it was a heavy two-handed rifle while the Gauss seems to be in this discussion based on damage alone. It's handled just like the AMR only it's not nearly as heavy (in terms of strength requirements to use properly as well as the physical weight value of the item in game.)

Either way I'm more interested in how the perks will work for the new skill, but it seems this thread has morphed into something way off-topic where people are trying to argue over how a fake gun in a video game works rather than try to help the TTW guys and gals balance the new skill.

[jlf65]

The AMR SHOULDN'T be a big gun. Yes, it is big, but size/weight isn't what makes a big gun - as EnderDragonFire says, it's the grip. "Small" guns aren't limited to SMALL guns - it goes right up to the sniper rifle in FO3, so I don't see why a slightly larger .50 cal rifle would be any different.

[Lyndi]

[quote=jlf65]

 

The AMR SHOULDN'T be a big gun. Yes, it is big, but size/weight isn't what makes a big gun - as EnderDragonFire says, it's the grip. "Small" guns aren't limited to SMALL guns - it goes right up to the sniper rifle in FO3, so I don't see why a slightly larger .50 cal rifle would be any different.

[/quote]

If it's grip only then the LMG, Bozar, Automatic rifle, and 25mm Grenade APW shouldn't be Big Guns either since they all share the same grip in the GECK with things like the AMR and Assault Carbine. I don't think anyone would argue with the Grenade Rifle being included as a Big Gun.

I think the basis of Roy's list was weapons that met more than one criteria. They were weapons that were classified as TwoHandHandle, TwoHandLauncher, or they were TwoHandAutomatic style weapons that had ammunition that was already considered explosive (the grenade rifle,) or were high strength/high weight weapons that were awkward to use regardless of grip style (the AMR, Bozar, LMG, and Automatic Rifle.)

The Gauss doesn't fit in with any of those criteria. Probably why he left it out in the first place. The only reason I could see it being included was for balance reasons. If the high damage scoped rifle was taken out of small guns then the high damage scoped rifle should be removed from energy weapons too. The high damage output of the Gauss is the only thing that could logically qualify it as a Big Gun as it isn't heavy, it isn't large, and it doesn't use an ammo type like missiles or grenades that would make it an obvious inclusion.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I don't care which way these weapons go in terms of skill requirements. I just like to try and get all possible views out there for the developers to consider. I suspect Roy has already considered a lot of this when he made his original list though.

 

[Decker]

Sorry if this all went a bit offtopic.. Out of all the fake guns, gauss guns are some of the more reasonable future predictions - Tech demonstrators already exist, just not at the Fallout performance levels in man portable form.

@Lyndi: I think you underlined the issue very well - If it is grip only lots of machineguns would also fall off the list of big guns. I think that several variables like grip, size, damage, ammo usage, balancing and the feel of the weapon ingame should also matter. Gauss Rifle and AMR are indeed cases quite close to the borderline here, propably.. The scoped F3/FNV Gauss Rifle obviously is the energy version of the antimateriel rifle, so logic would suggest that if AMR indeed is classed as a Big Gun, so should be the Gauss Rifle. It is all a matter of where the line is drawn between regular guns/energy weapons and big guns.

@paragonskeep: Real life Metal Storm weapons are not gauss guns, they are electrothermal guns which use chemical propellant ignited by electric current. Metal Storm barrel is loaded with a line of bullets with propellant layers between them - Bullets are fired out in a rapid sequence, one at a time. Once a metal storm gun is empty, it is reloaded by replacing the barrel(s) with full ones.

@jlf65: Yes, my brief description of gauss guns applies best to coil guns, which is the type used in Fallout games. In any case, a railgun also uses electromagnetic fields and induction currents albeit with a different design to cause a resulting force vector on the projectile armature which pushes it out at a very high velocity.. Let's rephrase this even shorter; Electric energy goes into the gauss weapon system, a ferrous projectile flies out at a very fast speed. Can't go wrong with this, I hope.. ;)

 

[RoyBatty]

I went not only with animation type, although that is a main criteria, I also looked at previous games and why something would be considered a big gun. Additionally I wanted some kind of balanced spread between skill requirements so there is something at every level, and also weapons of each skill type. The main problem seems to be taking away weapons from skill type when there aren't a whole lot to begin with. Where as I would like to take more from the Guns category as it is the most populated, there just aren't enough there to warrant that unlike say... Fallout: Tactics where there is an abundance of heavy ballistic weaponry.

That said I think many mods, and one I would plan to make down the road would fill out the categories nicely for all the skills. That's the thing too, I'm always planning for the future, and also taking into account existing mods like WMX (the M2), 20th Century Weapons (tons) and CFW (minguns, M2, M249 etc). Moreover as I gain skill in modeling I want to create my own Classic Weapons mod which has *all* previous games (except the game that doesn't exist) weapons in it and Big Guns is a large part of that. Also the more I watch Ian McCullum on YouTube the more I become interested in these fire arms he covers and I would like to make my own weapon pack based upon weapons from the 1890s through the 1970s.