Mission Mojave Patch

General mod discussion and requests.
Thatchor
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm

Mission Mojave Patch

Post by Thatchor » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:58 am

How much of an interest would you guys in having a Mission Mojave patch? I personally used the mod before TTW, but I'm not noticing TOO much of a difference without it. Also, before I start going nuts in FNVEdit, I just want to make sure that there already isn't one. I think I read somewhere that Jax was making one, but I don't think he released it.



plumjuice
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:59 am

0.o

Post by plumjuice » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:51 am

0.o


For realsies? I am very sceptical that you are experiencing zero issues. MMUE is rather unkind to TTW, rather unkind indeed.


By all means attempt a patch; there are many who would use it. That said, I'm pretty sure last time MMUE was brought up it was generally accepted that starting a bugfix mod from scratch would yield better results, and quite likely be easier.


It occurs to me now I've written that, that you may not be using MMUE, but the other (older) version that I recall floating around somewhere on the Nexus. I have no experience with it, but it may be less homicidal towards TTW. It lacks the Ultimate Edition monniker iirc.


Read before asking for help. Please. >>>>>> http://taleoftwowastelands.com/content/read-asking-help



Thatchor
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm

Sorry, let me clarify. I'm

Post by Thatchor » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:05 pm

Sorry, let me clarify. I'm currently running TTW without Mission Mojave. What I meant to say was that I don't notice too much of a difference when running Mission Mojave in standard New Vegas without TTW than running TTW without Mission Mojave when it comes to actually seeing bugs in the game, so I don't miss it too much.


Anyway, I have some personal business to take care of for the next few days but after that, I'm going to start work on the patch. If I did have to create a new bugfix mod from scratch, I'd of course just rip all the non-conflicting assets from Mission Mojave. It appears to me that it's mostly tedious trial-and-error work removing edits in FNVEdit. As of now, my plans are to actually modify the MMUE's .esp rather than create a patch to override it. Call me stupid, but I feel I get better results this way.



Thatchor
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm

I'm starting to see what you

Post by Thatchor » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:38 am

I'm starting to see what you mean by the difficulty in creating the patch. A lot of Fallout 3's form lists were deleted and when they created new ones, it uses the FormID causing some weird errors. Right now, I'm reversing those changes, so I should, in theory, be fixing it, but I'd also be deleting some of the Mission Mojave fixes (hopefully without causing errors, but that's what testers are for!). I'm hoping I can get an alpha version out tonight.



dawe1313
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:39 am

if you're serious about

Post by dawe1313 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:50 pm

if you're serious about undertaking this, you really need to make an override patch. if you start editing the main MMUE files, you will most likely "break" any compatibility with already existing patches


one of the big problems with MMUE is that instead of just disabling/deleting unused FO3 stuff, they repurposed it. so you would have to create the repurposed FO3 record as a new record, and update all the affected MMUE records to use the new reference. all in all, quite the major undertaking.



JaxFirehart
Posts: 3003
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 am

Who the hell does that!? Why

Post by JaxFirehart » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:13 pm

Who the hell does that!? Why repurpose it!? What did that gain them!?


The problems MMUE creates for TTW are EXACTLY why Bethesda uses the plugin numbering system they do. To prevent problems like this. Exactly like this.



dawe1313
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:39 am

i have no idea why they did

Post by dawe1313 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:03 pm

i have no idea why they did it that way. changing the editorID, content, and usage of a vanilla record is just...bad


it's one of the reasons i stopped using MMUE. as i got more experienced with modding, and the more i saw how they did things, the less i liked it.


as far as i'm concerned MMUE is not a "bugfix" mod, it's a giant kludge, that happens to contain a few bugfixes



Thatchor
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm

I was actually sort of p***ed

Post by Thatchor » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:59 pm

I was actually sort of p***ed when I saw that they did it the way that they did. Deleting the unused records doesn't really increase performance. It was really illogical on their end. As for the override patch... Yeah, I know... This was just going to be a general proof of concept as a replacement ESM. But if I'm going to do it, I may as well do it right I suppose.


Agreed on the giant kludge though. I might just like doing things differently, but I'd personally just have a script and use ListAddForm. Cleaner and wouldn't cause all these conflicts. Don't quote me on this, but aside from some out-right deleted FO3 references, which is easy to fix in FNVEdit, the wacky form lists are the primary conflict with TTW. In the several hours that I worked on this last night, it appeared that TTW fixed a large amount of bugs anyway. Google Operation Fixed Terrain, which shouldn't conflict, and you have almost everything MMUE has to offer anyway.


I'll play around more with it later just to see HOW much work has to be done to recreate all the form lists and change all references to it.



ArgusMercenary
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:24 pm

luthien wrote:

Post by ArgusMercenary » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:09 am

[quote=luthien]


 


I do my best to steer people clear of using Mission Mojave at all, and that began long before I was invited to become part of the NVEC project. When their former "world designer" tried to take an authoritative stance in an argument with me and convince me and others that the ESM flag had no effect on navmeshes, I knew that the blind were leading the blind.


 


From the description page:


"Why is the mod not an esm?


Masters generally should not modify other masters - only plugins are supposed to modify masters."


 


That told me all I needed to know about MM.


 


[/quote]


 


Just a question here, I'm trying to get into modding and I'd like to know more than I do now, which is basically just using FNVEdit to merge things, clean things and sort things. 


Anyway, so what does that quote exactly mean? And why is it bad? 



Thatchor
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm

I may end up not creating

Post by Thatchor » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:01 pm

I may end up not creating this. I ended up getting a stable (to me) version, although very crudely made and incompatible with many other things most likely. After manually reviewing a lot of the fixes, I found that the "fixes" in MMUE tend to fall into 4 categories:

 


[collapsed title=Hidden text]


(1) They fix/delete stuff that has no impact on the actual game or performance. Really absolutely no need. This causes a lot of conflicts, including major conflicts in TTW.


(2) They change things that don't need to be change. They may make more sense to some people, but they weren't really bugs.


(3) Landscape bugs that were fixed (and needed to be fixed), but can be fixed by downloading Operation Fixed Terrain. Although it's not on the Nexus, you can Google it. Although personally I had a lot of bugs with OFT, I was never lucky when it came to bug fixing mods haha.


(4) They fix true bugs that needed to be fixed, but are actually fixed in other mods, such as TTW and NVEC, which both seem to do it much more cleanly.


[/collapsed]


I may come back to it in the future, but honestly, I find no benefit in using it, especially if you use NVEC...


@ArgusMercenary   I'm not an expert on the differences between ESMs and ESPs, but to my understanding MMUE should really be an ESM, as well as all major overhaul mods for that mater, because any other mod that you may want to use should be able to easily modify the changes that it makes, incase they make conflicting changes. I'll let someone else explain the actual differences, because I'm not sure I can accurately do so.


EDIT: And the quote's just... wrong. Yes ESPs modify ESMs, but ESMs will modify ESMs too if you load them after whatever it is you are modifying...



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