CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Remove .32 Ammo

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JaxFirehart
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 am

CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Remove .32 Ammo

Post by JaxFirehart » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:23 pm

I am opening some things for general discussion, I want input from everyone who reads this on various topics listed below. The current goal is to recreate FO3 in the FNV engine while also integrating appropriate upgrades. The question is, what are the appropriate upgrades.


REMOVE .32 AMMUNITION

This one is a big deal and the one I most want input on. In the old TTW I removed the .32 ammo type completely. My reasoning was that there was no point in having one gun (.32 Pistol) that used the .32 ammo type. What I did was changed the .32 Pistol to the .45 Snubnose and then went through and changed all references to .32 ammo to either .45, .308, or 5.56mm depending on the context. This is a hell of a change and I am looking for thoughts.



dandys
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I have to say that I'm for

Post by dandys » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:55 pm

I have to say that I'm for keeping .32. It wasn't a big deal in Fallout 3, but playing the game without it would, I think, not feel very vanilla.


The way this question is phrased also leaves out the obvious other issue, the hunting rifle. Do we change all hunting rifles to .308, all to .32, or create two versions? In New Vegas the hunting rifle was turned into a higher tier weapon and I appreciate the fact that it uses .308 which was only for sniper rifles and not that useful in Fallout 3.


What if we changed Lincoln's repeater and/or the point lookout lever-action rifle to use .32 as well? That would create more uses for it (10mm and .44 magnum already are used enough by other weapons) and that might be further motivation to keep the ammo.


If we really want to change nothing ,and keep the .308 hunting rifle, I still would vote for keeping .32 for authenticity sake (not that it's necessarily realistic or anything, I know nothing about guns, but authentic to Fallout 3)



JaxFirehart
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On ammo, I'm waiting to see

Post by JaxFirehart » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:10 am

On ammo, I'm waiting to see what everyone thinks. If we don't remove it then I agree we have to do something about making more guns use it. As for hunting rifles, my inclination is to make it .308 and make it rarer, instead replacing it with varmint rifles where appropriate.



steviestevens
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I am for putting .32 back in

Post by steviestevens » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:00 am

I am for putting .32 back in/keeping it. My biggest problem with no .32 is low level raider tearing you up with .308 hunting rifles. Also it kinda takes away how nice ol painless was, it was a good low level rifle/sniper and even with the right build a downright dangerous weapon, especially if it had a scope (btw would that be a vanilla weapon mod or would we need soem kind of Fo3 weapon mod for it?). I vote keep it, unless it somehow causes problems or something.


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JaxFirehart
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I'm not saying to get rid of

Post by JaxFirehart » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:25 am

I'm not saying to get rid of the .32 Pistol, just change its ammo type to .44. I intend to update leveled npcs gear to take into account all the new weapons, as in low level raiders will use the .357 revolver and 9mm pistols, you won't see hunting rifles til its appropriate.


As for ol painless, I see your point, but I think it is pointless to have a .32 hunting rifle and a .308 hunting rifle, so getting rid of .32 doesn't change ol painless. If you have suggestions on how to fix ol painless that would be awesome.



steviestevens
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I do see how it is pointless

Post by steviestevens » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:52 pm

I do see how it is pointless on having 2 versions of the rifle, but if u dont add hunting rifles into level lists until later it will make having anythign but weak pistols an problem for a while. I havent looked if switching ol painless's caliber affected its stats, if not thats fine but I still think the issue of not having a rifle without adding in the varmit rifle (which im kind of against) would be a problem.



JaxFirehart
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Okay I see your point, if we

Post by JaxFirehart » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:18 pm

Okay I see your point, if we don't add the varmint rifle then low-level rifles will be practically non-existant. I don't see a problem with the varmint rifle though, why are you against it?



steviestevens
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Idk, I just feel like its a

Post by steviestevens » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:47 pm

Idk, I just feel like its a NV weapon, if no body else think that's the case we can add it. I won't argue, we need something.



yukichigai
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Vote .32 stays

Post by yukichigai » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:39 pm

[quote=steviestevens]


Idk, I just feel like its a NV weapon, if no body else think that's the case we can add it. I won't argue, we need something.


[/quote]


I'm with Steve.  The Varmint Rifle is very much an NV weapon, and can't be our low-level weapon in the CW, not JUST because it is a very obviously NV weapon, but because it would throw off ammo balance dramatically.  Since the Varmint Rifle runs off of 5.56, you'd get a wealth of that ammo on low levels, where in vanilla FO3 most players had to wait for about level 8-10 before 5.56 weapons became really maintainable.  The only way the Varmint Rifle would fit is if it still ran off of .22LR, which would be a change to both NV and FO3 that's a little drastic for our main file.  That also doesn't handle the issue of Super Mutants, who can use the .32 HR but NOT the Varmint Rifle.  That would, again, be a drastic change we might not want to make.


As far as .32 ammo goes, I rather like it.  Yes, the .32 Pistol (which, side-note, I think needs to be renamed the .32 REVOLVER) is a piece of crap, but its prevalence in the hands of Raiders means it provides ample ammo for the .32 Hunting Rifle, which is not crap.  I dunno about you, but I used the .32 HR (and Ol' Painless) well into the middle-late parts of FO3.  I'm not alone in that either.  It's a key weapon role in FO3, one that can't be replaced with the .308 version due to the damage difference, and (again) the effect it would have on ammo availability.  You think too much 5.56 too early is a bad thing?  Imagine a wealth of .308 available to anyone from the start of the game.  All you'd have to do is grab a Sniper Rifle from the Hollowed-Out Rock near Megaton and be set for the rest of the game.


.32 does have its uses, just like .22LR has its uses.  Honestly, I think it's somewhere between 9mm and .22LR in terms of usefulness.  You CAN get by in the game without using it, but not everyone will, or will want to.  And honestly, let's face it: the .32 weapons are somewhat iconic, even in their admitted mediocrity.  When you think of some random Raider blasting away with a crappy weapon, what crappy weapon are you thinking of?  Either the Chinese Pistol or the .32 Pistol.  And when a low-level Super Mutant has a rifle, what rifle are you thinking of?  Undoubtably the .32 Hunting Rifle.


Now as far as the duplicate-appearance Hunting Rifle thing goes, there's not much we can do about it.  We could try and make a new shape, but that would probably be too "non-vanilla".  We could use the FO3 version of the shape, but the only difference with that is that it is missing the Iron Sights completely, which frankly is not a good change.  Honestly, my inclination is to just go with it.  I mean FO3 didn't have unique skins for their unique weapons, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch.


Anyway, big wall of text.  TL;DR - Keep the .32 ammo, because there's no way the roles that the few .32 weapons fill can be replaced with anything from NV, at least without upsetting the balance of the game.



JaxFirehart
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You brought up a lot of good

Post by JaxFirehart » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:46 pm

You brought up a lot of good points, and, unfortunately, everything keeps coming full circle. I used the .32 HR and Ol Painless extensively throughout FO3 but skipped right to the Sniper Rifle more often than not in FNV and I agree they are iconic so I am against the removal, I just don't see a good way to avoid the removal. I am against having both a .32 Hunting Rifle and a .308 Hunting Rifle especially if they are basically identical. As a note on realism, .32 pistol ammo and .32 rifle ammo are not interchangable, but thats neither here nor there.


I propose we take for granted that the .32 hunting rifle is turned into a .308 hunting rifle and instead try to find solutions to the gap this creates.


As you know my proposed solution is to implement the varmint rifle as the new low level rifle and change the calber of the .32 revolver (I agree with the name change, no matter what).


What is it about the varmint rifle that makes it not fit in FO3? If it is just the name I would like to point out (via wikipedia) "Varmint or varmit is an American-English colloquialism, particularly common to the American east and South-east within the nearby bordering states of the vast Appalachia region" so if anything, the term fits hillbillies better than cowboys (I know, I'm grasping at straws here).


I really don't WANT to remove the .32, I just don't see any good alternatives.



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