FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

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dsfsghjhgsg
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FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by dsfsghjhgsg » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:54 am

Not sure if this belongs here, but for some reason my fps is a LOT lower in fallout 3's map, but completely fine in new vegas'. I've tried launching both games without TTW, in fallout 3 my FPS was fine and it was about the same in new vegas, so I'm pretty sure it's TTW causing my fps to be lower in the capital wasteland. Is this supposed to happen? I tried pretty much everything in the optimization guide.

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RoyBatty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by RoyBatty » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:14 pm

Fallout 3's map is more complex than FNVs and the engine isn't very well optimized. We'll be addressing optimization in later versions as much as we can, but there is only so much we can do. FNV broke TreeLOD which is a large part of it so object LOD has to be used for everything. Also a lot of the models are poorly optimized and this becomes more apparent in NVs engine (we'll address these), as well as the AI taking a lot more cpu unlike Fallout 3. This is also apparent in vanilla NV places like the strip.
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FiftyTifty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by FiftyTifty » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:54 am

Post your specs. If your GPU is solid, odds are your processor is getting bogged down by the draw calls. Overlooking Springvale after leaving Vault 101, the game can issue 7,500 draw calls, which is an insane number. You can check this through ENB's profiler section in the overlay.

My i7 6700k @ 4.0Ghz is still the limiting factor in performance in Fallout. My Vega 56 still has room to stretch it's legs. Very interested in seeing how Zen3 will perform at processing draw calls. A big culprit is all the tiny rock meshes without any collision. They're everywhere, to the point that I made a script to remove them from Fallout3.esm. Performance went up, though I didn't measure by how much. Draw calls took a fair hit, and visuals didn't change noticeably in any way.

I'd like to see if texture atlases would help performance much. That's more a Zilav thing, as I've not the foggiest on how to work with 3D meshes via xEdit scripting, or even just in general. Would involve a large amount of UV mapping and shader checks, to make sure the texture atlases are optimized and working properly.

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RoyBatty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by RoyBatty » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:38 pm

Theres no texture atlases for the nifs, it's just poor model optimization. I have a list of the worst offenders and I will fix them over time in 3dsmax. It's a lot of work to fix them. The broken houses are exceptionally bad with too many alpha layers, and the rambler houses are also bad, as well as the kit which makes up the school (and also bethesda ruins and parts of NV around mcarran). That one particular kit is terrible, there are other bad buildings like the ones at Roosevelt Academy, and many many more.

Every strip in a nif is another draw call, every layer of alpha, specular, glow and environment mapping is another draw call. Bethesda's renderer doesn't combine materials in a scene for draw calls, which is why its so bad, and is still bad to this day in Creation Engine. They try to fix this with dumb shit like precombined rather than fixing how their renderer works...
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FiftyTifty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by FiftyTifty » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:42 am

RoyBatty wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:38 pm
Theres no texture atlases for the nifs, it's just poor model optimization. I have a list of the worst offenders and I will fix them over time in 3dsmax. It's a lot of work to fix them. The broken houses are exceptionally bad with too many alpha layers, and the rambler houses are also bad, as well as the kit which makes up the school (and also bethesda ruins and parts of NV around mcarran). That one particular kit is terrible, there are other bad buildings like the ones at Roosevelt Academy, and many many more.

Every strip in a nif is another draw call, every layer of alpha, specular, glow and environment mapping is another draw call. Bethesda's renderer doesn't combine materials in a scene for draw calls, which is why its so bad, and is still bad to this day in Creation Engine. They try to fix this with dumb shit like precombined rather than fixing how their renderer works...
Worse still, they use a bog standard shader model 2 without any extensions, so there are objects that are drawn several times over in order to circumvent the shader instruction limit.

What exactly are the strips? Are they parts of a model that are isolated dependent on the materials they use? If so, creating texture atlases then re-processing the nifs to consist of one mesh with the UVs adjusted accordingly, would resolve that source of draw calls. But even then, there's a bunch of itty-bitty individual objects throughout the game. Worse still, the environments are designed around each object only being able to support a max of four lights affecting it, so areas are excessively fragmented.

If it's something that requires manual work, I'm up for helping out. Trick is getting documentation on how to do all that, there's not much about it on Geckwiki.

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RoyBatty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by RoyBatty » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:28 am

Using texatlases is not really practical for most meshes. Some of the large environmental nifs do already, but it really impacts the texture quality. Due to the sheer amount of models in the game, it's just not worth it. I would rather target specific kits or nifs which cause issues.

There's likely never to be good documentation on it, it mostly learning how to use 3dsmax, blender is not an option for this as it creates too many issues with UV unwelding, creating strips with multiple materials (even worse performance than vanilla) and doesn't export normals correctly. That last point is the deal breaker... horrible UI design aside.

Most of the issues with them are just because they were poorly made or poorly exported. It seems like a lot of interns worked on Fallout 3/NV, and/or things were outsourced and not much effort was put into exporting them correctly.

If you could behave on discord you could have gotten help with any of this.
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FiftyTifty
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by FiftyTifty » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:52 am

RoyBatty wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:28 am
Using texatlases is not really practical for most meshes. Some of the large environmental nifs do already, but it really impacts the texture quality. Due to the sheer amount of models in the game, it's just not worth it. I would rather target specific kits or nifs which cause issues.

There's likely never to be good documentation on it, it mostly learning how to use 3dsmax, blender is not an option for this as it creates too many issues with UV unwelding, creating strips with multiple materials (even worse performance than vanilla) and doesn't export normals correctly. That last point is the deal breaker... horrible UI design aside.

Most of the issues with them are just because they were poorly made or poorly exported. It seems like a lot of interns worked on Fallout 3/NV, and/or things were outsourced and not much effort was put into exporting them correctly.

If you could behave on discord you could have gotten help with any of this.
I've got experience with 3DS Max. Which nif plugin is the one best suited for this? The standard Nifplugins one made for 3DS Max 2010/2011?

Oh it was a late night, and I was running with my absurd humour. It's not like I went after anyone, or made anyone uncomfortable. Just talking about needing a bra for a couple of fictitious cysts.

Besides, keeping info like that on Discord is a very poor decision. It's a messenger, not a forum nor a wiki platform.

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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by RoyBatty » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:47 pm

2012 seems the best max to use overall, its the last one which can export armor correctly. I use 2013 for everything else.

3.7.3 plugin for 2012, and 3.8.0 for 2013

I don't *keep* the info anywhere, its just I haven't got time in my life to mod, and to document everything, and to live. So specific questions gets asked and answered, someone who has time to dedicate to it can do it.
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Postal-Dude
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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by Postal-Dude » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:19 pm

I used to have these too with my old setups. Guess what. I actually dont have them anymore. Why? No idea, probably hardware change.

Here a list of hardware I used all these years to play this game.

2009-2012
AMD Phenom X4 965
AMD Radeon HD 5830
4GB RAM, HDD

2012-2015
AMD FX 8350
AMD Radeon R9 280X
8GB RAM, HDD

2015-2019
Intel i7 6700K
Nvidia GTX 970 & later on a 1070 Ti
16GB RAM, SSD

2019+
Intel i7 9700K
Nvidia RTX 2070 Super
16GB RAM, M2 SSD

With my latest rig I NEVER drop below 60FPS and most of the time hover around 100FPS (144hz screen). In some areas in the DC Wasteland I might get 70-60FPS like in the city. I remember having constant drops to 30-40FPS with my older rigs but honestly got used to it after a while. Game also seems to run more stable. I only have occasional loading stutter in the Wasteland, but no wonder, I use upscaled 4K mods and such stuff. My textures alone are 80GB in size. Not kidding. I do also use Enb, or at least the boost function. I cannot run the game without it because it exceeds 4GB all the time and crashes.

As to why my latest rig doesn't suffer from this anymore, no idea. Guess its just because it can take use of the modern hardware. Either its the M2 SSD, higher RAM clock or, what I think is the most reasonable, the 8 core CPU. All my previous rigs were 4 Core CPUs with hyperthreading 8 Threads. Maybe the engine actually makes use of REAL 8 cores of hardware and more but no idea. Can also be that some of my mod is responsible. There is that new NVTF mod that pretty much replaces and improves on Stutter Remover. This mod is absolutely killer. Beside of that I only dont use Vsync (Having G-Sync). So any of these things must be the reason why the performance is so much better. Or everything is, who knows.

Just thought Id share my experience from over the years. ;)

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Re: FPS issues in fallout 3 areas

Post by Vlan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:08 am

RoyBatty wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:38 pm
Theres no texture atlases for the nifs, it's just poor model optimization. I have a list of the worst offenders and I will fix them over time in 3dsmax. It's a lot of work to fix them. The broken houses are exceptionally bad with too many alpha layers, and the rambler houses are also bad, as well as the kit which makes up the school (and also bethesda ruins and parts of NV around mcarran). That one particular kit is terrible, there are other bad buildings like the ones at Roosevelt Academy, and many many more.

Every strip in a nif is another draw call, every layer of alpha, specular, glow and environment mapping is another draw call. Bethesda's renderer doesn't combine materials in a scene for draw calls, which is why its so bad, and is still bad to this day in Creation Engine. They try to fix this with dumb shit like precombined rather than fixing how their renderer works...
Hey Roy, do you know anything about this mod?

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods ... escription

Did this one address the buildings you mentioned?

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