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JaxFirehart
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Frequent Zeta Crashes

I was trying to play through Zeta all day today and experienced regular crashes. Turning graphics all the way down seemed to help, but not much.

Specifically, the crashes are related to aliens, it seems. Whenever I am around aliens the chance of a crash goes way up. I have a hunch that it is sound related, they are trying to say something and its causing glitches, similar to the fawkes bug, but I can't find any empty sound files.

EDIT: Reopening this, I am experiencing a lot of crashes again, will test more and then share what I found.

Category: 

Bug report

Component: 

Other

Priority: 

Major

Status: 

Closed (merged)

Project: 

Tale of Two Wastelands

Version: 

TTW 2.9

Reporter: 

JaxFirehart

Created: 

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 14:38

Updated: 

Tue, 11/08/2016 - 21:08
Edited by: RoyBatty on 11/08/2016 - 21:08
GoreMaster
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Hmm I have not been able to

Hmm I have not been able to play the DLC so I have no idea but I did watch someone on youtube whom played the whole DLC without issues or at least he did not show his game crashing. I am trying to find it to see if it'll help with cracking down what It could be.

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I had little problems with MZ

I had little problems with MZ, and I went through the DLC with a modded game (71 mods).

I believe I only crashed 2x in the whole DLC, but thats due to the auto loading new areas/fast travel issue I have, so thats unrelated.

I did experience a freeze in the prison cell, but ALt-Tab to another window and back fixed that.

delta534
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I will have to do some more

I will have to do some more testing but I don't have any issue with crashing yet with Zeta. If I knew when the crashing started I could help pinpoint the issue.  

JaxFirehart
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It started after entering the

It started after entering the steamworks (right after rescuing Sally) and hasn't stopped since.

Turning graphics down appeared to help, but then the crashes came back again. I tweaked the ini to allow threading and increase the preload size, but that changed nothing. The crashes are intermittent and difficult to reproduce, I've gotten this far by simply setting CASM to save every 2 minutes and reloading until, for some reason, I can get past.

TJ suggested it could be related to Idle Markers with Null animations, which I will look into tomorrow.

TJ
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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

It started after entering the steamworks (right after rescuing Sally) and hasn't stopped since.

Turning graphics down appeared to help, but then the crashes came back again. I tweaked the ini to allow threading and increase the preload size, but that changed nothing. The crashes are intermittent and difficult to reproduce, I've gotten this far by simply setting CASM to save every 2 minutes and reloading until, for some reason, I can get past.

TJ suggested it could be related to Idle Markers with Null animations, which I will look into tomorrow.

I did notice while I was looking through Zeta with xEdit that the initial greeting with Sally has a conditional that points to 07 in my load order, but cannot be resolved. I assumed it was supposed to be pointing to FO3 and changed the index, but still nothing there. I'll be giving it another look myself after I get off tomorrow.

Risewild
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Strange, I am playing Zeta

Strange, I am playing Zeta and didn't have any problems yet, usually my game crash in Zeta when there is a drone with a backwards cannon instead of aliens.

Niar26
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JaxFireHeart, i know this

JaxFireHeart, i know this might be silly, but have you checked if  your savegame is corrupted?If it started after steamworks, maybe try to load a save from earlier and see if it happens again.

JaxFirehart
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Turning down graphics seems

Turning down graphics seems to help, but isn't a solution. I'll check my save.

I'm beginning to worry that this is a hardware issue.

TJ
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No luck with the Idle Anims

No luck with the Idle Anims eh? Just got in and was about to dig into Zeta when my brother-in-law and his family showed up. Will be a bit before I'm of any use (I know I said I'd help fix something in this damn game.) Hopefully it's not hardware related issues, have you noticed anything abnormal anywhere else?

plumjuice
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Just send the save to chuck

Just send the save to chuck or rise or whatever, and let them test it. If it crashes, it's likely corruption. If it doesn't, hardware jumps to near the top of the list.

JaxFirehart
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Good idea.

Good idea.

GoreMaster
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So any word? Would really

So any word? Would really suck to hear your hardware is failing, been there...

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Hadn't heard from Jax, but I

Hadn't heard from Jax, but I didn't find anything too serious when I looked through it. Hadn't checked the scripts yet, but it's not looking like Zeta's bad so far...

JaxFirehart
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I am assuming this was unique

I am assuming this was unique to me/my hardware and closing it.

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Issue changes: 

Status: Needs Playtesting » Closed (cannot reproduce)
Issue summary: Old » New
Aardonyx
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Actually it's been happening

Actually it's been happening to me too, Jax. I just got into Mothership Zeta today, started getting frequent crashes around aliens after the steamworks. At first I thought I had a mod conflict or something, so I disabled everything except for TTW, F3, FNV and their DLCs. It didn't fix anything. I'm struggling to get through this, I crash literally every 2 minutes. Whenever I'm in an area with no aliens I don't crash at all. 

delta534
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Have you tried using this to

Have you tried using this to see if it help your crash issues. http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/53635/?

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My 2.4a game crashes

My 2.4a game crashes immediately when i arrive at the crashed alien ship, just when i am going to get lifted to the alien spaceship.

Aardonyx
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That's a different bug,
That's a different bug, related to your inventory. Drop any thrown weapons before approaching the UFO. (Grenades, mines, throwing knives, etc)
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That is a weird bug but good

That is a weird bug but good to know that it is known.

Used the console to skip the lift sequence, and noticed also that i am also having some crashes inside the ship.

Also there is one missing mesh inside robot assembly.

Aardonyx
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I've been messing around with
I've been messing around with it, and I've noticed that the crashes ONLY happen when the aliens are in an alerted state. So it has to be either a sound issue, an AI issue, or possibly a broken animation but idk if that would cause a CTD. I went rooting around through the GECK and the only alien related sounds I could find were their footsteps, but I might be doing something wrong as I've never messed with sound in the GECK before
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Sorry for my English. My game

Sorry for my English. My game also crash when aliens appear so i replaced zeta-main.esm and zeta-sounds.esm(left moded by ttw instaler zeta.esm) with original fallout 3 main.esm and sound.esm and crashes stopped. I don't know why moded main and sound had 190 mb and 45 mb when original had 472 mb and 49 mb. Hope it helps.

 

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That might indeed help. The

That might indeed help. The reason why the BSAs are so much smaller is twofold. First, TTW deletes all of the Assets out of BSAs that already exists in FNV. The second reason is that BSAOpt is better than whatever Bethesda uses to compress, so BSAOpt gets the archives much smaller.

Most likely, one of the assets that exists in FNV is corrupted or otherwise causing crashes.

Piers Arkan
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I also was getting this issue

I also was getting this issue quite a bit.

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The same has been happening

The same has been happening to me, every time aliens start showing up it crashes, it has gotten worse in the steamworks. 

JaxFirehart
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To everyone with these

To everyone with these problems, I turned my graphics and stuff ALL the way down. It didn't fix it, but it reduced the frequency. I have since gotten a new video card but have yet to test again.

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Well I replaced the BSAs like

Well I replaced the BSAs like the other guy did and that fixed it, but that's a crap solution and temporary as well.

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Obsidian made use of the

Obsidian made use of the alien creature from Zeta with one important difference, it seems between how the animation data is packaged along with the model and its skeleton. Some of the animation data (.kf files) for the alien are no longer included in a folder that is present in 'Zeta - main.bsa' but instead have been moved into another existing subfolder in 'Fallout - Meshes.bsa.'

The .kf files under question don't seem to be different from one another, despite having been relocated in this manner.

Because all of creature data for the alien are already present in 'Fallout - meshes.bsa,' the TTW installer repacks the 'Zeta - main.bsa,' removing everything related to the alien except for this other folder.

As a result, these animations that are left in 'Zeta - main.bsa' end up as duplicate animations for the alien creature. Since the GECK scans the parent folder which contains the skeleton and other models for a creature for .kf files and adds these to the list of available animations, it's not clear which animation the engine defaults to using: either from Zeta or from New Vegas. 

Some users don't report crashing when the aliens appear. For those who do, extracting the original .bsa from Zeta, from Fallout 3 into the NV data folder fixes crashing. Removing the duplicated animation data from the repackaged Zeta .bsa and using only New Vegas's resources doesn't fix crashes. 

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I will have to test it more

I will have to test it more but the issue seems to be the alien skeleton file. Why I have not run into this crash before I have no clue.

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I can confirm that the

I can confirm that the crashes start as soon as the animations on the aliens are started that Tricky mentioned (Aliens with melee weapons don't produce a crash, my NV crashes as soon as they start to use their ranged ones). My experience is that Skeleton and base animations should always in the same base BSA. The extra folder in Zeta normally doesn't make any problems and shouldn't influence at all. I think the problem here is that the animations are doubled.

Sadly I wasn't able to make a proper test yet. BSAopt refuses to produce a working changed Zeta bsa for me (not in the TTW installer only when I try to use it externally). But I think keeping the whole Alien creature tree (mesh/anims(texture) in one bsa should solve the problem.

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The problem then becomes

The problem then becomes either removing what's in the NV bsas, or adding the missing zeta files, right? Or would they not be duplicated if everything was in Zeta's bsa?

 

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Removing what is in NV's BSAs

Removing what is in NV's BSAs is not really possible. Why isn't this a problem with the NV wild wasteland encounter? To me that's the key.

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@delta354: both varieties of

@delta354: both varieties of alien use the same skeleton and models. This is why everything can be removed from the Zeta.bsa and the resources in New Vegas can be used in place. You think if there was something wrong with the skeleton, the aliens from the wild wasteland encounter would be affected but they don't cause any issues for people.

I'd like to know why the Zeta aliens don't like using just the animations in the NewVegas.bsa when the Wild Wasteland aliens seem fine about it.* And how are people avoiding having crashes if this is the issue?

*ninja'd by Jax

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JaxFirehart wrote:Removing

JaxFirehart wrote:

Removing what is in NV's BSAs is not really possible.

That's kinda what I was getting at.

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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

The problem then becomes either removing what's in the NV bsas, or adding the missing zeta files, right? Or would they not be duplicated if everything was in Zeta's bsa?

There are actually no missing Zeta files. What's in the meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien\specialanims in the zeta bsa are the same animations that are in meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien in the NV bsa. Stuff that is in folders in a creature folder gets automatically merged by the creature animation manager if the animation tag in the nif and the filename is fitting in my experience.

That's why I think that the problem is that we have two of them.

JaxFirehart
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So if I delete the duplicate

So if I delete the duplicate files from Zeta BSA that might fix it? But then why does the vanilla Zeta BSA not cause this problem?

sesom
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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

So if I delete the duplicate files from Zeta BSA that might fix it? But then why does the vanilla Zeta BSA not cause this problem?

Because the skeleton.nif and the kf files from the Zeta BSA is used by the engine then and not the one from the NV bsa. That's my suspicion in this case.

If you are able to make a test without duplicate files from Zeta BSA (as I said I am sadly not able too). Make sure it is tested with a clean safe where no Aliens are already loaded in the gamesave.

TJ
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When we had rise test that

When we had rise test that last night (remove that folder from zeta - main - so that the NV anims are used) he said it caused more crashing. EDIT: I do not know the state of his save. You may be on to something sesom.

delta534
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I'm convinced it's an issue

I'm convinced it's an issue between the New Vegas alien skeleton and the animations, not a duplicate resource issue.  

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I made a zeta bsa without the

I made a zeta bsa without the specialanims and get less crashes. Especially when the Aliens start to use their ranged weapons. But there is something else which produces CTDs after a while fighting Aliens.

What I noticed that the Aliens show a variation of the famous weapon stick bug once in a while which leads in the direction of the skeleton correct delta534. What I noticed is that the NV Alien skeleton contain a additional NISBoneLodController which actually isn't used in FO3 and NVs engine at all (Skyrim started to use this principle).

I make now a zeta bsa which contains now the whole creature files of NV but with the skeleton of FO3. To hopefully override the NV one and see if I get less (hopefully no) crashes after that.

sesom
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Good news everyone. Crashes

Good news everyone. Crashes in Zeta solved!

I made a Zeta bsa which contained the whole NV bsa creature mesh folder meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien but changed the skeleton to the FO3 Zeta one.

So the Zeta BSA overrides the NV BSA but contains NV meshes and animations only. The only change is the skeleton.

There are no doubles animation shown in Geck too, so all data is loaded from there and works perfectly.

Now mothership zeta works completely fine without crashes for me. I tested the Wild Wasteland Encounter in NV too and absolute no troubles.

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Issue changes: 

Status: Closed (cannot reproduce) » Verified
Risewild
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So the fix wasn't removing

So the fix wasn't removing that animsomething folder but add the NV stuff to the zeta bsa? I guess we were in the right track, should have just tried the opposite direction instead .

I guess I had more crashes because I was in an area where I would go and fight ten different aliens with melee and ranged weapons, so the crashes happened anyway I should have tried a different save before encountering any alien I guess, my bad .

sesom
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Risewild wrote:

Risewild wrote:

So the fix wasn't removing that animsomething folder but add the NV stuff to the zeta bsa? I guess we were in the right track, should have just tried the opposite direction instead .

I guess I had more crashes because I was in an area where I would go and fight ten different aliens with melee and ranged weapons, so the crashes happened anyway I should have tried a different save before encountering any alien I guess, my bad .

Actually the specialanims folder has to be removed Rise so it doesn't come to the double animation entries which are a source of crashes too. Adding the NV animations and meshes to the Zeta bsa is simply to make sure that all animation relevant resources are in one bsa because we need the old Alien skeleton.nif from FO3 Zeta. The NV skeleton.nif is strange made and has troubles when a lot of stuff is going on.

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Well, at least we were

Well, at least we were partially on the right track.

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Hey guys, I have the same

Hey guys, I have the same problem. But honestly I have no idea how to fix it by reading your comments Can someone tell me step by step how to at least reduce the crashes ?

TJ
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(Please don't take this as me

(Please don't take this as me being an ass, I'm trying to help you prevent damage to your game) If you didn't understand the dialogue above, your best bet for a fix is wait until the next version of TTW.

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Actually I fixed it with

Actually I fixed it with Bruno temporary solution ... well ... no crash so far. Thanks anyway continue your good work guys, love TTW.

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I'm having this issue too,

I'm having this issue too, and am quite technically adept and this is still a bit confusing.

Here's what I believe the steps to be and will be trying shortly:

- Open "Zeta - Main.bsa" and remove meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien\specialanims completely.

- Open "Fallout - Meshes.bsa" (from NV) and extract the meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien folder's contents, and add them to "Zeta - Main.bsa".

- Open "Zeta - Main.bsa" untouched, from your copy of FO3, and extract meshes\dlc05\creatures\alien\skeleton.nif, and put it in the TTW "Zeta - Main.bsa".

Edit: Actually, I think I'll try putting the skeleton file as a loose file first - I have a hunch that it might work..

Edit 2: That seems to have worked (will report back if it proves otherwise). I am using EVE with both FO3 and NV versions merged together for TTW, and I suspect it's related. Perhaps the FO3 EVE is reliant on the skeleton.nif from FO3 and is breaking when the NV skeleton is used? It definitely seemed to crash more when I was using energy weapons on them. That's just a theory, though.. Will report back if I encounter any further crashes and try the "full" solution I outlined above, otherwise this seems good.

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Yushatak wrote:

Yushatak wrote:

I'm having this issue too, ....

Edit 2: That seems to have worked .....

 Ditto here,  used the loose file, and just ran Zeta start to finish - no crashes...

Thanks !

 

 

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