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JaxFirehart
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TTW Progress Report

Closed Beta

I have completed the initial conflict resolution between FO3 and FNV. There are bound to be errors, the way the Fallout engine works is just too complex for one person to reliably resolve all conflicts. By the end of the week, a closed beta will start. Members of the team will be given a list of goals to be accomplished and will scour the wasteland for issues, upon completion of this closed beta, we will release it to the public as a public beta. I would like for the closed beta to last approx. 1 month. Unlike the last release of TTW, all FNV DLC will be supported out of the box because, unlike the last release, we are focusing on not touching ANYTHING on the FNV side of things. There may be unforseen problems, but I did my best to ensure that the initial conflict resolution changed as little as possible. The FO3 DLCs on the other hand, will be tested and released one at a time after the closed beta is over. Currently there is a debate (here) over whether or not TTW should require all DLC from both FO3 and FNV. Currently the majority favors requiring all DLC. Please stop by that thread and tell us what you think.

Goals

Our goals for TTW are two fold:

  1. To create a base mod that ONLY recreates Fallout 3 using the FNV engine. This mod will not include any extra content that is not necessary to upgrade Fallout 3.
  2. To create a fully integrated merger between FO3 and FNV this will include Chuck's train travel method and other additions that help the two games feel appropriate with one another.

Format

Tale of Two Wastelands has undergone a bit of a change in how it works. We are going to a multi-master format, FalloutNV.esm loads first and is unchaged, Fallout3.esm is patched to have FalloutNV.esm as its master, but is otherwise unchanged, it loads its second. Finally, TaleOfTwoWastelands.esm loads third, it resolves conflicts between FNV and FO3. Our ultimate desire with this format change is to reduce download sizes and increase ease of installation.

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Edited by: thermador on 12/11/2014 - 09:47
Quetzlsacatanango
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Sorry if this has already

Sorry if this has already been addressed somewhere else, but out of curiosity, why go back to multiple esm?

The merged falloutnv.esm worked so well on TTW's previous incarnation, and rock solid stable. Much better than the multiple master method ever did, especially if fallout3.esm gets no other changes.

Maybe the last sentence answers this. Seems like you would want to go with what is proven to work well.

Not arguing, just curious.

-Q

JaxFirehart
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Our method is actually a

Our method is actually a hybrid between the multiple masters and merged masters methods. The tiny patch we make to Fallout3.esm makes it inject all of its records into FalloutNV.esm. This is kind of hard to explain, basically this means that FalloutNV.esm takes ownership of all of Fallout3.esm records. As far as the game is concerned the masters ARE merged, as far as the user is concerned the masters are separate. This SHOULD allow us to get the best of both worlds. I am not stubborn. If the closed beta shows that this approach is not as good as directly merging the files, then we will go back to that method.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this new method should also allow for better use of mods, such as essential bug-fixing mods like the Fallout 3 Unofficial Patch and  Mission Mojave - Ultimate Edition.  I had a lot of problems trying to get either of those working with the current merged master setup.

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That could be an added bonus,

That could be an added bonus, yes. I have worries, though, that we will have to find some way to get mods like that to play nicely with TTW. Kuroitsune, the previous lead, was integrating them directly into TTW. I would like to avoid that, but it may become necessary.

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I'm very pro merge everything

I'm very pro merge everything. I like having MMUE and UF3P integrated. It cuts down on load order, removes the need for CP's, and creates much better stability. And cutting down on load order is very important to me.

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I'd just like to be able to

I'd just like to be able to use both of Dracomines' Redesigned Mods. I suppose I could just set the Fallout 3 Redesigned to use FalloutNV.esm as it's parent instead, but that just seems like a lot of work for something that should be a bit easier to do.

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Hello, I would like to help

Hello, I would like to help with testing the closed Beta.

Is this possible or is it Team internal only ?

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

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I am willing to open it to

I am willing to open it to modders. Give me a good reason and you're in. That goes for everyone.

darthbdaman
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Unique Weapons With Unique

Unique Weapons With Unique Textures and/or Unique Items - unique look are mods you should definitely consider merging. One of the odd things in Fallout 3 was that none of the Unique Items where actually unique, while in NV, 95% have unique textures or models. It would add a lot more consistency between the games.

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thermador wrote:

thermador wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this new method should also allow for better use of mods, such as essential bug-fixing mods like the Fallout 3 Unofficial Patch and  Mission Mojave - Ultimate Edition.  I had a lot of problems trying to get either of those working with the current merged master setup.

I've gotten Fallout 3 Unofficial Patch to work using Wyre Flash to change the master... that said, I have been unable to get MMUE to work.

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I also really like the idea

I also really like the idea of not altering NV, to keep mods compatible. The only thing I would suggest is changing some leveled lists (probably through scripts to ensure compatibility) to add Fallout 3 items to NV, not at specific places, just in random loot.

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Thats exactly what I plan on

Thats exactly what I plan on doing, though the chinese weapons will either be rare or non existant because New Vegas was not a war zone (though the chinese did infiltrate hoover damn at one point).

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Some of them would have made

Some of them would have made it home as war trophies especially Chinese Swards and, pistols! The Chinese Assault rifle should be the rarest. 

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Having been a part of the

Having been a part of the last closed test group, I'd like the chance to continue with that.  Not much of a modder per se, but I an a completionist when it comes to playing the game, so I can cover a lot of ground in a lot of detail.

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Because there is still so

Because there is still so much to be done, I'm looking for people who already know how to fix stuff. It is in a very early alpha stage at the moment. Once things are more updated we will expand the closed beta to include players who will just play and report bugs. And then it will be an open beta.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

Because there is still so much to be done, I'm looking for people who already know how to fix stuff. It is in a very early alpha stage at the moment. Once things are more updated we will expand the closed beta to include players who will just play and report bugs. And then it will be an open beta.

As I said on the Team Mystery forums, I'm in if you need my help. I'm quite competent with both FVNedit and the Geck, the only thing I cannot do is script. On the topic of multi master the only issue I see is with mods. Both RFCW and TTW Prototype worked fairly well with NV Mods, but I was only ever able to get FO3 mods working right on the prototype. Also, definitely require all DLCS. There's no reason anyone shouldn't have them at this point.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Perhaps the multiple-ESM

Perhaps the multiple-ESM format will fix my issue with freeze-ups during loading screens? I'm looking forward to trying this :)

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Hey guys, I'm a programmer

Hey guys, I'm a programmer and interested in lending a hand if I can. If there's any code to be written I'm eager to take a crack at it. If that's cool let me know where I should go from here to get involved.

Seems like an interesting project to dig into. Cheers.

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What kind of code are we

What kind of code are we talking? Fallout scripting or actual programming, like C++ or similar?

We are currently in a closed alpha stage while we try to get it ready for public consumption, the alpha is invite only and we are looking for anyone with modding experience who can both identify bugs and fix them.

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My pedigree is tradition

My pedigree is tradition computer science, backend server stuff, machine learning, data mining and processing, stuff like that. Language wise I'm pretty much agnostic, have worked on projects in C/C++/C#/ObjC, Java, Perl, Python, server side js, plus various other scripting languages. I've also done some tinkering with other platforms and languages that catch my eye.

I'll be honest, I've only touched GECK in the past to fix up some mod issues I was having. I just took a quick look at the scripting language, looks straightforward enough.

I'm not sure what the project looks like in it's current state, or if theres much call for external utilities or scripting in the game itself, but if there is, I'm eager to help out. 

 

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darthbdaman wrote:

darthbdaman wrote:

Unique Weapons With Unique Textures and/or Unique Items - unique look are mods you should definitely consider merging. One of the odd things in Fallout 3 was that none of the Unique Items where actually unique, while in NV, 95% have unique textures or models. It would add a lot more consistency between the games.

 

Seconded! And I for one am for the idea of making the D.C. weapon, Occam's Razor, into an actual razor instead of a hunting knife. I was thinking it could be bigger than the straight razor, and have kind a "scrap metal turned blade" feel to it. After all, Occam's Razor is one of my favorite early scientific principles, so I thought it deserved a more charismatic representation. Just a thought though.

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I actually agree. Our primary

I actually agree. Our primary goal at the moment is to recreate the capital wasteland WITH FNV UPGRADES. It's hard to decide which upgrades to implement and which not to. I don't foresee anyone on the team having an issue with giving the unique items a unique look, though I do not know if we are going to incorporate the mods mentioned, or if someone will want to do it themselves, but I think it will be done in time for the public beta.

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I'm not very good with

I'm not very good with modleing, but it's something I've been wanting to improve. I'd like to help if there is a remodel project for unique weapons and armor. I can start by submitting a redo of Occam's Razor like I was describing. (I was also thinking it would be cool to give the Jackals and Vipers some unique armor models in New Vegas, even though that might not fit into this same project. I heard that the vipers historically wore bones and red sashes, and the Jackals wore fur.)

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darthbdaman wrote:

darthbdaman wrote:

I'm very pro merge everything. I like having MMUE and UF3P integrated. It cuts down on load order, removes the need for CP's, and creates much better stability. And cutting down on load order is very important to me.

I understand exactly where you are coming from with this. Cutting down the load order is going to be key factor for both games. However, I don't believe mods should be integrated into the this mega mod, other than those that are needed to make FO3 play nice with NV. However, both the aforementioned mods are necessities and I wouldn't see any harm in making them part of the main file itself. We can always merge our own mods together and make a singular path for them all to play nice( as oppposed to downloaded hundred of patches for indiviual combos) Its actually rather easy to do both of these and I am pretty sure its going to b a must for most of us here. That is if you like use a lot of mods.

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Freeze ups on loading screens

Freeze ups on loading screens is a vanilla bug. I even had that on my xbox version on some saves. some games I had saved wouldn't load at all 5-6 times in a row, then suddenly worked again. I get this same thing on the PC. I close the program and usually on the 1-2nd try it loads.

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I started keeping a couple of

I started keeping a couple of old saves that I know will load. I use them to "prime" the game. When my latest save won't load, I load the old save then load then the new save. Seems to work every time.

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Any idea why the 'prime'ing

Any idea why the 'prime'ing works?  I think I'll create a new save for just this use.

 

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I don't know. I had the hang

I don't know. I had the hang at load problem in Requiem also.

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Can you change the "9 years

Can you change the "9 years later" on the first train journey to "4 years later"?

I could most likely make a video file or whatever kind of file it is and sent it in to you guys.

If you have already done this or planned to do this, then thank you for a brilliant mod and keep up the good work.

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We actually chose 9 years

We actually chose 9 years later to better give the Lone Wanderer time to do all the things the Courier had done. It Kinda messes up the timeline a bit, but we agreed it was minor.

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Just out of curiosity is that

Just out of curiosity is that something that can be made optional? I'd much rather have a character that isn't a middle aged person for a trip that even on foot can be made in much less than four years.

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walking would take about two

walking would take about two months

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Its not that the journey

Its not that the journey takes 9 years, its that the courier has forgotten everything that happened in those 9 years due to his headwound-itis. Technically, if he is 19 on leaving the vault, then he is 28 on arriving in New Vegas, not exactly a geezer.

So it COULD be made optional, and I'm sure somebody will mod it, but I won't do it myself.

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Right, Ok then I don't quite

Right, Ok then I don't quite understand why nine years, But it's not a a big deal worse case I can just close my eyes or at certain points or something. I'm just happy I'll have the opportunity to play from DC to Vegas without changing games.

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I just joined the forums, and

I just joined the forums, and I really interested in beta testing. I have experience modding in Skyrim, and pretty knowledgeable in Tes5edit.

From what I gathered is that the courier is the lone wanderer, and a train is use to go back and forth? Couldn't there be a side quest that Doc Mitchell suggests that there's someone that can help with the courier's memory, like group tribal that perform a ritual similar to film Cowboys and Aliens, where the natives give the protagonist peyote to drink, and the courier he relives it, and he relocates a stash of items he hid in the Mojave. Might help with whole level lists and stuff.

Or a quirky scientist that studies time travel and develops a way to a person to travel back/forth in their timeline. Kind of reference Donnie Darko film, that people are attached to a certain temporal cord. Teleporting him directly to point where where he exit vault 101. With a device able to teleport back and forth with current items.

Just suggestions, as the whole train thing is kinda bland.

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If you have scripting

If you have scripting experience in Skyrim, be warned that it is COMPLETELY different from Fallout. They massively overhauled the system for scripting.

As for the train, actually try it. In my opinion it works pretty well, I think chuck did an awesome job planning the system and setting up the station.

If you want to set up the alternatives you suggested as mods, we would be glad to host them. We used the train because it is a simple system that gets you from one wasteland to the other.

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BYFEE, I have also made a

BYFEE, I have also made a couple of other transport mods if the train doesn't suit you:

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-ttw-vertibird-trans...

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-bigmt-transportalpo...

The problem that will always affect projects like TTW is how to manage the timeline issues.  Even without my transport mods, the first time you travel on the train in TTW, 9 years go by.  But if you take the train back to DC, everything is the same as it was when you left. 

So unless time travel is involved (which to my knowledge has never been implemented in the Fallout universe) you just have to assume that things are kind of in a holding pattern unless the courier/lone wanderer gets involved and shakes things up.  To me, this is pretty easy to accept, since as we know, war... war never changes.

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Yeah the worst part is the

Yeah the worst part is the kids that don't grow up...

BYFEE
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thermador wrote:

thermador wrote:

BYFEE, I have also made a couple of other transport mods if the train doesn't suit you:

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-ttw-vertibird-trans...

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-bigmt-transportalpo...

The problem that will always affect projects like TTW is how to manage the timeline issues.  Even without my transport mods, the first time you travel on the train in TTW, 9 years go by.  But if you take the train back to DC, everything is the same as it was when you left. 

So unless time travel is involved (which to my knowledge has never been implemented in the Fallout universe) you just have to assume that things are kind of in a holding pattern unless the courier/lone wanderer gets involved and shakes things up.  To me, this is pretty easy to accept, since as we know, war... war never changes.

They look great, I haven't had time to fiddle with the GECK yet. I was looking for a more RPG feel mod. Something that would revolve the courier trying to regain his memory. The time travel wouldn't be to hard, when I had time I was going to look into how operation anchorage intro was scripted, it would be similar to that.

I very good with audio editing, I study film and audio at Fullsail University. So I was already looking at sounds, effects for the transportation sound.

Pretty the layout would go.

1. Doc Mitchell suggests he heard of someone that could help the courier figure out his past.

2. Courier finds the scientist. Young male, possibly someone from the capital wasteland relocated to New Vegas.

3. Courier agrees to be the first to try the process. Scientist gives the courier an injection, possible perk side effect.

4. Courier sits in machine, machines activated, screen starts shaking, white flash, audio starts playing, you hear random snips from F03 mix in with a rewinding noise.

5. Courier ends up exactly when he exited vault 101 shack door. The whole initial vault quests are auto completed.

This is just a short synopsis of the mod. Possibly tie in EDE or something. Scientist could possibly communicate through EDE while the Courier relives his past.

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OK I gotta know, what is

OK I gotta know, what is everyone's beef with the train? You are born in V101, grow up, escape the vault, hop on a train and whiteout with your next memory of getting shot in the head and then waking up in Mitchel's house. You then spend the remainder of FNV picking up tidbits of what happened before getting on that train and getting shot.

Not trying to bash your ideas at all, they are clever and interesting and would be cool to see. I just don't understand why so many people hate on the train...

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Sylvester Stallone and Quad

Sylvester Stallone and Quad City DJs ruined trains for me, lmao j/k.

I'm just throwing ideas out... stir up the pot... come up with something different. I thought TTW was suppose to be its own game, pretty much right now its you play F03 as you would normally, and go to a train and wake up in doc mitchell's as normal. Where's the difference, it just a weak transition/tie-in between 2 games.

train works... for now... for testing... but release?

Just my opinion, don't beat me up.

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I like hearing opinions.

I like hearing opinions. Surprisingly the reason you dislike the train is exactly why we picked it. TTW was never supposed to be its own game, it is supposed to tie FO3 and FNV together while upgrading FO3 so that the two wastelands felt coherent, so we picked the train to keep things simple. But thats the beauty of mods, I even built a system into TTW that allowed mods to hijack our transition code (just the stuff that turns off radios and sets variables and all that) so that any transport mods will always be up to date.

I look forward to your alternate travel mods, I see people making TTW mods as an indication that we are doing something right. Way back before this site was even formed, we kicked around a mod idea we called the inception mod. Each time you went to sleep, you swapped wastelands, as if you were remembering the CW as you slept in NV. It was completely doable and potentially awesome. I would still love to see it released as an optional add-on, but we are trying to make a bare minimum of changes with TTW. Just enough to merge the games without ruining either one.

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... I thought the train was a

... I thought the train was a grand idea... I've also actually used the magic sewer. Honestly don't feel like there's any room for hate on the train station. It's pretty sick, and comes with an open invitation for anyone to make a transport mod.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

Way back before this site was even formed, we kicked around a mod idea we called the inception mod. Each time you went to sleep, you swapped wastelands, as if you were remembering the CW as you slept in NV. It was completely doable and potentially awesome. I would still love to see it released as an optional add-on, but we are trying to make a bare minimum of changes with TTW. Just enough to merge the games without ruining either one.

I would play that :-)

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I might have a preliminary

I might have a preliminary version of the inception mod around somewhere that someone else from the old forum made. There was an issue with the conditions in the scripting that prevented it from working though.  The idea of it was to allow an easy way back to the CW if you chose to start the game in NV.  I suspect it could still work even if you start in DC.  Might make for a strange playthrough though.

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The train station serves an

The train station serves an adequate purpose. I think it was done excellently too.

I'd love to see it linked onto Rez's DC Subway. Like, connect the 2 systems at a common station.

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thermador wrote:

thermador wrote:

BYFEE, I have also made a couple of other transport mods if the train doesn't suit you:

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-ttw-vertibird-trans...

http://www.taleoftwowastelands.com/content/rel-alpha-bigmt-transportalpo...

The problem that will always affect projects like TTW is how to manage the timeline issues.  Even without my transport mods, the first time you travel on the train in TTW, 9 years go by.  But if you take the train back to DC, everything is the same as it was when you left. 

So unless time travel is involved (which to my knowledge has never been implemented in the Fallout universe) you just have to assume that things are kind of in a holding pattern unless the courier/lone wanderer gets involved and shakes things up.  To me, this is pretty easy to accept, since as we know, war... war never changes.

Actually time travel existed as a Special Encounter in Fallout 2 I remember because we would get a unique weapon from it.

Guardian of Forever

Raider480
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Lol true, but then again

Lol true, but then again considering things like that as cannon is akin to opening up the whole MZ as cannon debate.

That was cool though.

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Risewild wrote:

Risewild wrote:

Actually time travel existed as a Special Encounter in Fallout 2 I remember because we would get a unique weapon from it.

Guardian of Forever



I totally remember that encounter. My inner Trek geek loved it. 

/befo

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TTW team,

TTW team,

Just wanted to say thanks for the all the hard work and effort on this. Much appreciated and looking forward to the next update.

 

 

RickySloamKR

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