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Thatchor
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Mission Mojave Patch

How much of an interest would you guys in having a Mission Mojave patch? I personally used the mod before TTW, but I'm not noticing TOO much of a difference without it. Also, before I start going nuts in FNVEdit, I just want to make sure that there already isn't one. I think I read somewhere that Jax was making one, but I don't think he released it.

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plumjuice
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0.o

0.o

For realsies? I am very sceptical that you are experiencing zero issues. MMUE is rather unkind to TTW, rather unkind indeed.

By all means attempt a patch; there are many who would use it. That said, I'm pretty sure last time MMUE was brought up it was generally accepted that starting a bugfix mod from scratch would yield better results, and quite likely be easier.

It occurs to me now I've written that, that you may not be using MMUE, but the other (older) version that I recall floating around somewhere on the Nexus. I have no experience with it, but it may be less homicidal towards TTW. It lacks the Ultimate Edition monniker iirc.

Read before asking for help. Please. >>>>>> http://taleoftwowastelands.com/content/read-asking-help

Thatchor
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Sorry, let me clarify. I'm

Sorry, let me clarify. I'm currently running TTW without Mission Mojave. What I meant to say was that I don't notice too much of a difference when running Mission Mojave in standard New Vegas without TTW than running TTW without Mission Mojave when it comes to actually seeing bugs in the game, so I don't miss it too much.

Anyway, I have some personal business to take care of for the next few days but after that, I'm going to start work on the patch. If I did have to create a new bugfix mod from scratch, I'd of course just rip all the non-conflicting assets from Mission Mojave. It appears to me that it's mostly tedious trial-and-error work removing edits in FNVEdit. As of now, my plans are to actually modify the MMUE's .esp rather than create a patch to override it. Call me stupid, but I feel I get better results this way.

Thatchor
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I'm starting to see what you

I'm starting to see what you mean by the difficulty in creating the patch. A lot of Fallout 3's form lists were deleted and when they created new ones, it uses the FormID causing some weird errors. Right now, I'm reversing those changes, so I should, in theory, be fixing it, but I'd also be deleting some of the Mission Mojave fixes (hopefully without causing errors, but that's what testers are for!). I'm hoping I can get an alpha version out tonight.

dawe1313
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if you're serious about

if you're serious about undertaking this, you really need to make an override patch. if you start editing the main MMUE files, you will most likely "break" any compatibility with already existing patches

one of the big problems with MMUE is that instead of just disabling/deleting unused FO3 stuff, they repurposed it. so you would have to create the repurposed FO3 record as a new record, and update all the affected MMUE records to use the new reference. all in all, quite the major undertaking.

JaxFirehart
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Who the hell does that!? Why

Who the hell does that!? Why repurpose it!? What did that gain them!?

The problems MMUE creates for TTW are EXACTLY why Bethesda uses the plugin numbering system they do. To prevent problems like this. Exactly like this.

dawe1313
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i have no idea why they did

i have no idea why they did it that way. changing the editorID, content, and usage of a vanilla record is just...bad

it's one of the reasons i stopped using MMUE. as i got more experienced with modding, and the more i saw how they did things, the less i liked it.

as far as i'm concerned MMUE is not a "bugfix" mod, it's a giant kludge, that happens to contain a few bugfixes

Thatchor
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I was actually sort of p***ed

I was actually sort of p***ed when I saw that they did it the way that they did. Deleting the unused records doesn't really increase performance. It was really illogical on their end. As for the override patch... Yeah, I know... This was just going to be a general proof of concept as a replacement ESM. But if I'm going to do it, I may as well do it right I suppose.

Agreed on the giant kludge though. I might just like doing things differently, but I'd personally just have a script and use ListAddForm. Cleaner and wouldn't cause all these conflicts. Don't quote me on this, but aside from some out-right deleted FO3 references, which is easy to fix in FNVEdit, the wacky form lists are the primary conflict with TTW. In the several hours that I worked on this last night, it appeared that TTW fixed a large amount of bugs anyway. Google Operation Fixed Terrain, which shouldn't conflict, and you have almost everything MMUE has to offer anyway.

I'll play around more with it later just to see HOW much work has to be done to recreate all the form lists and change all references to it.

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luthien wrote:

luthien wrote:

 

I do my best to steer people clear of using Mission Mojave at all, and that began long before I was invited to become part of the NVEC project. When their former "world designer" tried to take an authoritative stance in an argument with me and convince me and others that the ESM flag had no effect on navmeshes, I knew that the blind were leading the blind.

 

From the description page:

"Why is the mod not an esm?

Masters generally should not modify other masters - only plugins are supposed to modify masters."

 

That told me all I needed to know about MM.

 

 

Just a question here, I'm trying to get into modding and I'd like to know more than I do now, which is basically just using FNVEdit to merge things, clean things and sort things. 

Anyway, so what does that quote exactly mean? And why is it bad? 

Thatchor
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I may end up not creating

I may end up not creating this. I ended up getting a stable (to me) version, although very crudely made and incompatible with many other things most likely. After manually reviewing a lot of the fixes, I found that the "fixes" in MMUE tend to fall into 4 categories:
 

I may come back to it in the future, but honestly, I find no benefit in using it, especially if you use NVEC...

@ArgusMercenary   I'm not an expert on the differences between ESMs and ESPs, but to my understanding MMUE should really be an ESM, as well as all major overhaul mods for that mater, because any other mod that you may want to use should be able to easily modify the changes that it makes, incase they make conflicting changes. I'll let someone else explain the actual differences, because I'm not sure I can accurately do so.

EDIT: And the quote's just... wrong. Yes ESPs modify ESMs, but ESMs will modify ESMs too if you load them after whatever it is you are modifying...

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If an esm couldn't modify

If an esm couldn't modify another esm then none of the DLC, let alone TTW, would ever work. That comment just makes absolutely no sense.

ArgusMercenary
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Thatchor wrote:

Thatchor wrote:

@ArgusMercenary   I'm not an expert on the differences between ESMs and ESPs, but to my understanding MMUE should really be an ESM, as well as all major overhaul mods for that mater, because any other mod that you may want to use should be able to easily modify the changes that it makes, incase they make conflicting changes. I'll let someone else explain the actual differences, because I'm not sure I can accurately do so.

EDIT: And the quote's just... wrong. Yes ESPs modify ESMs, but ESMs will modify ESMs too if you load them after whatever it is you are modifying...

I think I see what it means, now I understand why all the big mods like FOOK, PN, NVEC all use esms, its so that they do not create as many conflicts as an esp would, at least from what I've seen, esps override esms. 

I guess the problem with MMUE, is that since it is so big, it should be an esm otherwise it will have conflicts with everything. I wonder what happens to people who run PN and/or FOOK, from what I remember MMUE is supposed to be a mod compilation right?  I've always used NVEC though, I never saw the appeal to use MMUE, plus now that this new information has been revealed, I'm staying as far away from it as I can. A mod that size would wreck my load order, especially since I use more than one overhaul. 

Thatchor
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ESPs can override ESMs, or

ESPs can override ESMs, or they can just add new content, but ESMs can't really override ESPs because they load them. They can, however, conflict with each other.

ArgusMercenary wrote:

I guess the problem with MMUE, is that since it is so big, it should be an esm otherwise it will have conflicts with everything. I wonder what happens to people who run PN and/or FOOK, from what I remember MMUE is supposed to be a mod compilation right?  I've always used NVEC though, I never saw the appeal to use MMUE, plus now that this new information has been revealed, I'm staying as far away from it as I can. A mod that size would wreck my load order, especially since I use more than one overhaul.

It's not that it's so big (which does and can cause conflicts, even if they are benign) that it causes a lot of conflicts. It's just the way decided to fix some bugs. MMUE is kinda a mod compilation. Kinda. It's a bugfix mod more than anything, but a lot of the edits are just dirty (not done correctly). People can run PN and FOOK nicely together. Heck, I've ran TTW, PN, NVEC, EVE, WMX, and multiple other mods together before with minimal hiccups before. Utilizing merged/bashed patches, optimizing your load order, and making sure you get the proper patches is extremely important.

After attempting this patch, I'd recommend to steer clear. Alot of other mods also fix these errors. YUP, which is compatible with pretty much everything (props to the guy who compiled it!) and NVEC, which isn't compatible with TTW by default, but there are patches that work quite nicely.

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The reason that I picked MMUE

The reason that I picked MMUE over NVEC is that NVEC has alot of stuff that I didn't want.  I basically want bugfixes and a couple of tweaks here and there.  NVEC did stuff like changing the hacking screen to go by super fast and other things that just looked really goofy in the game. 

If they had more options or an MCM menu that you could disable or enable stuff with liKe Requiem for Skyrim then I would find it more appealing.  I will try out that YUP patch I saw mentioned though instead of MMUE as that is something the everyone seems to agree on.

Edit:  Just checked teh NVEC page as I haven't looked at it in a while and it looks like they did add an MCM menu in the last few versions.  I will give it another spin.  :)   I see on the pics that I can already disable the goofy stuff like the Nordic weapons etc.

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Luthien that posted above

Luthien that posted above added it (NVEC's MCM.) Also, unless you know what you're doing (like- seriously) just steer clear of MMUE. It does not work with TTW.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

 

Luthien that posted above added it. Also, unless you know what you're doing (like- seriously) just steer clear of MMUE. It does not work with TTW.

 

Yup, I already uninstalled it after reading the thread and will use NVEC and YUP (Just YUP for now till the NVEC/TTW patch is updated) instead.  :)

Thatchor
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And as I already mentioned,

And as I already mentioned, even if you DO know what you're doing, MMUE still isn't worth the hassle. Most of the bug fixes that it fixes aren't even bugs/have no noticeable impact/are fixed by TTW. The overwhelming majority of the remaining bugs are fixed by YUP which works wonderfully with TTW. If you want the terrain fixes that MMUE provides, look up Operation Fix Terrain. It's not on the nexus any more as it was merged into MMUE, but it's still available on other websites.

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DO I still need to use a bug

DO I still need to use a bug-fix compilation for Fallout 3 or does that not matter anyways since its essentially using the FNV engine and game mechanics?

Thatchor
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You mean the unofficial FO3

You mean the unofficial FO3 patch? No, it is not compatible. Stick with YUP. It works wonderfully. ;) If you post any outrageous bugs that aren't corrected by TTW, I'm sure we'll fix it, but TTW itself corrects many bugs as it stands.