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zilav
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FNVLODGen

I need help understanding some aspects of lod in FalloutNV. It mostly works the same as Skyrim, except one issue.

Objects lod files are located in meshes\landscape\lod\wastelandnv\blocks\ folder for vanilla worldspace, however there are several files that have "high" word in name. For example

meshes\landscape\lod\wastelandnv\blocks\wastelandnv.level4.high.x-20.y-28.nif

meshes\landscape\lod\wastelandnv\blocks\wastelandnv.level4.x-20.y-28.nif

Those have the same grid coordinates, "high" version contains handshaking statue if you open it in NifScope

http://i.imgur.com/LdCmfb2.png

Ordinary file has the statue too and additional objects from surrounding cells. The question is - when, how and under what conditions those "high" lod files are generated and used by the game?

TTW Version Compatibility: 

v2.8

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Edited by: TJ on 07/08/2015 - 13:06 Reason: Moved *from* TTW Tech Support *to* Mod Talk.
RoyBatty
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hrm doesn't Fallout have 2

hrm doesn't Fallout have 2 different LOD levels, one for very distant, one for mid. Maybe checking the flags for "visible when distant" ?

Under the terrain manager settings in FalloutPrefs.ini there is these settings which control the LOD

fLowBlockLoadDistanceLow

fHighBlockLoadDistanceLow

fLowTreeLoadDistance

fHighTreeLoadDistance

Perhaps they are related, if some of them are set too high mid distance LOD changes from lower poly to higher poly at the wrong time or even it disappears totally.

zilav
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Probably, but how to

Probably, but how to differentiate between low and high lod models? Is there anything in GECK for static records?

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NVMojOutpostStatue01 has the

NVMojOutpostStatue01 has the "Visible when Distant" set. I hope it is the differentiation that you are looking for.

RoyBatty
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From what I understand to

From what I understand to properly generate LOD, both high and low tri count models are needed. The low ones are needed for LOD generation and aren't shipped with the game from what I've seen, where as the high ones are. When dealing with the Tree LOD issues that TTW was having, some stuff was changed about the "visible when distant" flags and GECK complains that there is no LOD low model for them.

It's a kludge to fix the very low tri LOD models from showing up as duplicates over the high ones. It became obvious that New Vegas did not have proper LOD generated for the plants and tree's because Obsidian did not understand the system completely, or perhaps the engine was changed to generate it as object LOD instead. It's a puzzle, and there is a discussion thread in the mod author sub on the nexus about it. Several contributors to the thread were going to update the wiki with better more complete info about LOD generation, and perhaps they have done so as this discussion was only last month.

Other team members know a lot about it too, Chuck, Tricky and sesom can probably answer some of the questions.

The Truancy Factory blog has a lot of info too, and perhaps contacting the owner would be helpful.

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There's an option when

There's an option when generating LOD to tick 'high priority' for models that are also visible when distant. This makes sure that their LOD blocks are visible from the furthest distance away, which is the only difference I've seen between 'high' and 'normal' priority LOD blocks. 

Probably, but how to differentiate between low and high lod models? Is there anything in GECK for static records?
  All LOD models are treated the same. There are no 'high-poly' and 'low-poly' LOD models for static objects that I'm aware of. Every LOD model that was used in NV was shipped with the game. Only the textures in the source folder for those models were not.    Yes, the GECK can view static objects but NOT LOD objects for those static objects, unless they too are imported as new static objects into the GECK. But then you might as well just view them in NifSkope.
zilav
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Thank you all!

Thank you all!

Seems that High Priority is what I need. Does it apply only to statics or that flag is available for static collections too? Unfortunately FNVEdit source code has the same flags for all records, so I can't check that myself without GECK.

sesom
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The "High Priority LOD" is

The "High Priority LOD" is set on the reference. So it can apply to SCOLs too (not sure if it is used in game).

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F3/FNV LOD gen must be

F3/FNV LOD gen must be different then, or maybe it's different for tree's.

 

zilav
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Regarding Trees LOD in

Regarding Trees LOD in fallouts. First please read TES5LODGen description page on how LOD works in Skyrim since it inherited Fallout's LOD and they are very similar.

Trees LOD in fallout has slightly different naming for files

meshes\landscape\lod\<worldspace>\trees\<worldspace>.*.*.*.dtl those files have the same format as *.btt in Skyrim

meshes\landscape\lod\<worldspace>\trees\treetypes.lst, also the same format as in Skyrim.

But the last difference is a nail in the coffin, atlas file holding flat images for trees lod in a worldspace

textures\landscape\trees\treedeadlod.dds

Yes, there is no worldspace name at all, it is a hardcoded LOD texture for all worldspaces in the game. The only "difference" is if worldspace editorid starts with "DLC4" game will use textures\landscape\trees\treeswamplod.dds, and this is hardcoded too (hello Point Lookout).

LODGen for trees builds atlas itself from separate LOD images of trees used in a worldspace. Since the atlas is common in fallout, trees LOD must be built for all worldspace at the same time. I just don't want to do that honestly, this will make running FNVLODGen a mandatory when any tree is changed in any worldspace in the game.

Unless you have contacts with people who can reverse engineer engine and create NVSE plugin to override used atlas texture name for worldspace similar to Skyrim one, like textures\landscape\lod\<worldspace>\trees\<worldspace>treelod.dds and fall back to default procedure of atlas naming if this texture doesn't exist for the current worldspace, I don't see any point in doing trees lod for fallouts at all. Only objects LOD will be generated by FNVLODGen for now.

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So then as a work around it

So then as a work around it can be with object LOD and alter the esm/esp or whatever to remove "has tree lod" flag and set visible when distant flag instead?

zilav
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Workaround... for what? As

Workaround... for what? As far as I know FNV doesn't use Trees LOD (lst and dtl files) at all, so there is nothing to generate. I can try to implement it as a proof of concept, but the same atlas for all worldspaces is not practical.

chucksteel
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the trees in NV are objects

the trees in NV are objects and there LOD is generated when generating the object LOD. 

RoyBatty
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I was referring to TTW

I was referring to TTW because we had to do something like that to fix the LOD issues with Fallout 3. There was a problem where the distant LOD would not disappear up close, the meshes and textures would remain.

Some messing about with the flags in geck on the trees and treetypes.lst fixed the issue. It's like the NV engine doesn't handle Tree LOD properly anyways.

 

zilav
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The issue was FormID indexes

The issue was FormID indexes in *.dtl files since you changed the index load order of Fallout3.esm, they required an update. I think someone just took BTT files patcher script for Skyrim and used it on dtl files since they have the same format, there was a thread about this here on forum some time ago.

I know that FNV uses objects lod for trees, that's why I asked - is it worth doing Trees LOD generation for FNV at all? I don't see anyone using it, though it is way more optimized than objects lod.

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That's nice to know thanks :)

That's nice to know thanks :) Perhaps we should go back and fix it properly then if it's not? I'm not entirely sure what that whole process entails... that's for smarter modders around here.

I don't know if it is worth it or not, I'm sure people would use it if the feature is there for NV mods. Queued could probably make a plugin for changing the texture path, but he's been rather absent lately.

 

zilav
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Added joshua trees (removed

Added joshua trees (removed them from objects lod) and various bushes into the trees LOD to test

http://static-7.nexusmods.com/15/images/130/156622-1427483165.jpg

http://static-5.nexusmods.com/15/images/130/156622-1427483341.jpg

Works quite well, they sometime disappear on the border of transitioning from LOD into full meshes, but still better than nothing. Didn't notice any performance hit.

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That looks nice, is that with

That looks nice, is that with NMC too?

 

zilav
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Nope, pure vanilla.

Nope, pure vanilla.

However both objects and trees lod on screenshots are generated with FNVLODGen.

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So when do we get to test it?

So when do we get to test it? :D

zilav
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Soon, few bugs left to fix.

Soon, few bugs left to fix.

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Yay :D

Yay :D

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By the way, have you

By the way, have you encountered any issues with Trees LOD in fallout3 worldspace in TTW? Don't have TTW myself and can't check it.

I generated Trees LOD for WastelandNV, but noticed very annoying issue. When I approach trees, sometimes their LOD disappears before full models are drawn. I need to make several steps forward to make trees appear. Happens randomly  - I can approach trees and they switch from lod to full models fine, then go away, turn back and approach again from the same direction, and they bug out.

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I've noticed this yes,

I've noticed this yes, strange pop-in/out. If you get to the bottom of it, let us know please. :)

Uhm, if luthien hasn't messaged you, shoot him a message about the treelod file thing. :)

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So they added that Trees LOD

So they added that Trees LOD system in Fallout3, broke it in New Vegas, and repaired in Skyrim :)

Well, ok. I'll leave trees lod generation as is for Fallout3, but will add trees as objects in FNV like Obsidian.

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Okidoki. Also install TTW and

Okidoki. Also install TTW and JOIN THE DARK SIDE. ;)

zilav
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Any modellers around here? I

Any modellers around here? I need low-poly models of dead trees

meshes\landscape\trees\treedead01.nif (01 to 05)

with untiled lowres texture (UV in the range of 0..1). They don't have to be a single texture per model, any number will work if necessary.

Need them to check FO3LODGen, and also for wasteland worldspace in TTW since trees LOD confirmed to be bugged in New Vegas.

sesom
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FO3 actually has treedead02

FO3 actually has treedead02_lod_flat, 3 and 4 (1 and 5 are missing).

Do you need a lod nif for all 5 of them (extra made for NV) and should they be billboard LOD mesh or a normal one?

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Just an FYI

Just an FYI

FNV doesn't like the treedead02_lod_flat.nif file (or any xxxx_lod_flat.nif file for that matter).

It kept asking me for a treedead02_lod.nif, which doesn't exist, so I renamed the treedead02_lod_flat.nif to that filename (thinking it might shut it up) and it hated it. GECK complained about TREELOD02_DEAD_LOD:0 missing a texture property or something.

I couldn't fix it in NifSkope, I'm useless at it.

Ultimately, I ended up using a blank nif file and GECK didn't complain about that.

Anyway, just this amateur's two cents.

 

Regards,

Dark.

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Ok thanks Dark that clears it

Ok thanks Dark that clears it. I'll make valid object lod files from this trees (have to finish two other TTW updates first). Hope this is what zilav needs.

zilav
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Actually this is not what I

Actually this is not what I need :)

Let me briefly describe you how Trees LOD system works in Fallouts (and Skyrim with some minor changes).

When you build trees LOD in GECK for a worldspace it collects all the references of TREE, STAT and ACTI objects with "Has Tree LOD" flag. Then it builds a list of unique "trees" from them and assigns an index starting from 0. Then for every tree it gets model filename, adds _lod_flat.nif suffix and opens that file. The only info needed for trees lod is width/height of that model, and min/max UV values, so a total of 6 float values.

This info is written in treetypes.lst file: tree index, width, height, U min, V min, U max, V max. Then *.dtl files are generated for cells blocks, they contain tree index, x, y, z position of tree and scale. The displayed atlas image for all trees is landscale\trees\treedeadlod.dds (treeswamplod.dds if worldspace name starts with 'DLC4', hardcoded in the engine).

So as you can see, those _lod_flat.nif files are just fakes only used for storing width, height of a tree in game units and UV position of it's image on atlas texture. They are *NOT* the actual models shown in game. That's why I got rid of them in TES5LODGen and get that info from txt files or just calculate from object bounds field. You can read more here

http://afkmods.iguanadons.net/index.php?/topic/4051-wipz-tes5lodgen-for-...

But lets get to the point. Trees LOD isn't working properly in New Vegas. LOD trees randomly disappear when you approach them before full model is shown. It is very irritating and noticeable for large or semi large objects. Can be used probably only for bushes since they are small and hardly noticeable. The other downside of trees LOD is that only vertical trees can be shown in Trees LOD, they always have 0 rotation around X and Y axis (Z is random since they are just flat images). This is a hardcoded limitation. You can't have a lod for fallen trees or angled ones using Trees LOD system.

That's why I want to get rid of Tees LOD and generate lod for trees using Objects LOD system and real 3D models. This is how Obsidian did it with joshua and other trees in New Vegas.  So I need someone to get the actual trees models, make them low poly and reUV them to low resolution texture(s) without tiling since those textures will be put on a common atlas with other lod textures.

sesom
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I understood you correctly

I understood you correctly zilav. That's why I wrote "!!object!! lod files"  (nifs to be more precise). I finish Tricky's door problem and then I get to it.

zilav
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Thanks, will also need lod

Thanks, will also need lod models for Point Lookout trees at some point. But dead trees should be enough to test for now.

zilav
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Testing time!

Testing time!

Download the latest dev version of TES5Edit and rename to FNVLODGen.exe

http://afkmods.iguanadons.net/index.php?/topic/3750-wipz-tes5edit/

You can specify -O:"c:\some\output folder" command line parameter to generate LOD files in designated folder if needed instead of Data (for MO users mostly). Run as admin, or put FNVLODGen in a folder where it has write access writes.

Remove "Trees LOD" in options, it requires billboards for trees anyway which are not provided for now.

LOD files are generated in those folders, you can rename "blocks" to "_blocks" for example in meshes to switch to vanilla LOD if needed (for comparison)

meshes\landscape\lod\<worldspace>\blocks\

textures\landscape\lod\<worldspace>\blocks\

Check for any bugs and oddities like missing, wrongly positioned, rotated, wrong textured etc. LOD objects in game.

The generated atlas for WastelandNV worldspace has about 80% free space, so there is plenty of space for higher resolution LOD textures or additonal LOD models as vanilla LOD is lacking in this regard. Sheson is currently trying to improve nv_rocks lod models.

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Awwww yus! Going to test this

Awwww yus! Going to test this RIGHT NOW...

Thanks so much zilav, sheson and sesom too right?

 

zilav
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Oh forgot, install this also

Oh forgot, install this also

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4rR0C-Bcx_JajJZUW5pTHk2dTQ/view?usp=sh...

it contains some renamed lod normal maps since originally TES5LODGen was made with assumption that normal maps always have the same name as diffuse with _n suffix like in Skyrim. Turned out this is not true for Fallouts, so I copied unmatched files with "correct" names. There are still some missing normals for DLC lod meshes though, FNVLODGen will report them so you can copy manually.

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Give screenshots of results

Give screenshots of results please.

chucksteel
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Haven't tested much but I ran

Haven't tested much but I ran this on all of TTW and I have to say I am already quite impressed. places that would pop in do not anymore. 

Thanks can't wait to try it with the trees. 

zilav
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I noticed that there are some

I noticed that there are some LOD meshes included with the game, but their records don't have VWD flag and they are probably not in vanilla LOD, I think GECK doesn't included unflagged objects. I decided to ignore VWD flag completely, so now the only requirement for any object (STAT, SCOL and ACTI) to have lod is a presence of _lod.nif file with the same name as full model.

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The Monorail tracks in DC

The Monorail tracks in DC have some funky LOD texture on them. 

Since you made the choice to ignore the VWD Flag should I download and run again? 

zilav
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Nope, I made this choice long

Nope, I made this choice long time ago.

What do you mean funky textures? Need a screenshot. Also check vanilla LOD first that it is ok there, then locate corresponding _lod.nif file and check it too.

chucksteel
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yep that was a bad bug report

yep that was a bad bug report! I know better but I really just wanted to ask if I needed to re-run the process. I will test in vanilla and get some screens but it is like the coulombs that hold up the track are turned 90 degrees in the LOD. They look blocky in the distance. 

chucksteel
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TTW with LODGen added

TTW with LODGen added

Vanilla FO3 with no LOD Gen. 

I'm using Wasteland 3,7 as a reference but it seems to be all the monorail tracks in DC. 

  • mrsinglecurve01_lod.nif
  • mrsinglecurve02_lod.nif
  • mrsinglecurve03_lod.nif
  • mrsingledebrislong01_lod.nif
  • mrsinglepillar01_lod.nif
  • mrsinglepillar02_lod.nif
  • mrsinglepillar03_lod.nif
  • mrsinglestraight01_lod.nif
  • mrsinglestraight02_lod.nif
  • mrsinglestraight03_lod.nif

Hope that's more helpful! 

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The monorail tracks in NV do

The monorail tracks in NV do the same thing. I'm running around taking screenshots all over, I'm regenerating the LOD now with the missed files to see what changes.

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I'm doing the same. will

I'm doing the same. will report back. 

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Here I updated the pack with

Here I updated the pack with most of the missing normals.

The following files however do not exist at all in any form.

textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02_redcedarneedlesev_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02_redcedarneedlesm_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02_redcedarneedleszv_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleaf2_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleafev_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleaftm_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleaftm01_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleaftm02_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleafzv01_lod_n.dds
textures\nvdlc02\landscape\trees\nvdlc02treeleafzv02_lod_n.dds
 

File Attachments: 

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So can we make tree LODs

So can we make tree billboards using FNVEdit or is it just not doable with FNV? Is it any different for FO3 trees?

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This looks smashing other

:EDIT:

All pics removed so post edited.

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Mod added building seem to

Mod added building seem to have trouble using the correct lod model or texture?

http://i.imgur.com/pbg5Wme.jpg

Also can't see the platform in the middle of lake.

http://i.imgur.com/9NKuItI.jpg

LOD textures seem to be 64x64 in many cases. Can we start making larger packs like TES5 has? I really like having at least 128x128 and 256x256 available.

zilav
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Thanks for reports, but

Thanks for reports, but majority of your reports are not bugs really, but rather bad quality vanilla LOD models/textures or an absence of them.

If you think you found a bug, then first save, go to LOD meshes folder for worldspace and rename "blocks" folder to "_blocks" for example so the game will switch to vanilla files, load back and confirm that there is indeed a difference between newly generated LOD and the vanilla one.

Once confirmed, please check the source _lod.nif mesh is present for that object, have existing textures and look normal in NifScope. If you don't know how to get a model name for some object in game, use this guide

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1514275-how-to-identify-textures-in-gam...

Please use nifscope 2 http://afkmods.iguanadons.net/index.php?/topic/4136-nifskope-20-dev/ it can read textures from BSA archives if you add them in options, makes it much more easier to check lod models.

I don't see anything wrong with monorail http://i.imgur.com/kev8tmo.jpg and here http://i.imgur.com/A217SOX.jpg and many other posted cases, it is just a bad quality LOD meshes/textures for me.

However the missing fort walls and pink rocks are valid bugs. Check their _lod.nif meshes as I said, I'm very interested in the pink ones. Try to also open generated lod mesh in NifScope for that cell.

Let's concentrate on New Vegas worldspaces for now as I don't have TTW and my FO3 installation is collecting dust for 5 years and doesn't even load, need to reinstall it.

I already have billboards for trees, but due to a game bug they can only be reasonably used for small objects like bushes in my opinion. Other bigger trees should be redone as objects lod. New lod meshes, improved ones, higher resolution lod textures or texture packs variations can be done, but this is a manual modeling/texturing work. I'm leaving this up to proficient modders.

If you want to create a new lod model, name is as full mesh but with _lod.nif suffix. If you want to replace lod textures, name them as textures used in corresponding _lod.nif model, or edit those models in NifScope and change textures there (though this is unreasonable unless model itself has changed).

zilav
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Regarding normal maps "The

Regarding normal maps "The following files however do not exist at all in any form.", they must exist but with a different name. Locate their _lod mesh, check normal maps file and rename as diffuse one with added _n suffix.

By the way, this is vanilla monorail LOD

http://i.imgur.com/MQZZ8Md.png

http://i.imgur.com/kAtOaxO.png

It looks exactly like on your screenshot. That's why I'm asking to check _lod meshes first before reporting. Vanilla LOD is so bad in quality that it looks "bugged" sometimes.

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