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JaxFirehart
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TJ I agree, we won't create

TJ I agree, we won't create something that already exists. BUT! That doesn't mean I don't like seeing these ideas. It just means that stuff that isn't specific to TTW won't be considered. I am still trying to come up with a decent way to balance the two games. I read this thread every day, even if I don't post, so please continue brainstorming.

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Wow thanks, I did not know

tjmidnight420: wow thanks, I did not know about Practice Makes Perfect

That is definitely a possible solution right there, pre-made.  I added it to the list in my previous post.

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I didn't know about that mod

I didn't know about that mod either I am also a fan of TES series so I am quite familiar with that type of leveling up it works well on those games so it might work well on TTW too, specially because since there are two games in one there are more chances to level skills that wouldn't have as much use in just one game.

Although now that I think about it TTW has something that TES games don't, perks. Using that mod it would be hard to level some skills which would make very tedious to get enough skill points to pick some perks that are (for example) science dependent, or medicine dependent etc.

The way I see it would be easier to level weapon skills than social or maybe also thieving skills making passing some of the skill checks in some dialogs very hard too.

I am finishing reading all of the description on the mod page, we can customize the rate at which a particular skill will increase, am I understanding that right? If that's the case than I guess we would have a way to deal with slow increasing skills.

The problems I see with it are that some users might not like how the level up is handled with that mod, or even some might get confused and not be able to configure it to be balanced and stuff.

I will have to try it for myself and see how it goes after the TTW testing is done .

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While I agree that there are

While I agree that there are already plenty of solutions readily available on the Nexus, the whole situation really just boils down to whether or not TTW should aim for being balanced as a standalone mod or not.

As it currently stands, the mod is not balanced. This isn't a huge deal because as it's been said players can simply make their own tweaks to change the game to suit their playstyle. With that said though, it's up to the modders to define their objective of integrating the wastelands to both be playable within the same game. If they feel that balance is a significant enough issue that it merits attention and alterations to be made then the discussions here are relevant. If those working on the project feel that it is outside the mandate of the project, then it's all moot.

I'm also going to point out that neither Fallout 3 or New Vegas were particularly balanced out of the box. There was some challenge in early game, but both games quickly became ridiculously easy in the mid game (108xp per kill anyone?).

 

The main reason I advocate raising the level cap is just because it seems to me to be the "closest" to vanilla gameplay, and it still leaves the options open for everyone else to implement slower leveling, practice makes perfect, or whatever strikes their fancy.

 

One other thing that I don't think has been given enough consideration as a possible solution though is to implement a system similar to that of the original Fallout games, where you could raise your skills past 100% at the expense of additional skill points (e.g. require 2 points for each skill point from 101-125, 3 from 125-150, etc.). This would be one way to help balance the the vast quantities of exp (and thus skills) that are available in TTW, while still giving the player something to strive for. In conjunction with a higher level cap, players would probably feel a lot more incentive to go out and explore as much of both wastelands as they can.

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Well, we could have a list of

Well, we could have a list of "Recommended mods" for TTW. 

On the download page, there could be a short list of mods that we know will work with TTW and we can safely recommend - as an example:

Mods recommended to improve character leveling (chose one option):

  • Project Nevada (adjust the experience rate down to xx%)
  • PN + Practice Makes Perfect (changes leveling system, raises level cap)
  • TTW Get shot in the head = level 1 mod
  • etc.

Mods recommended for graphics:

  • NMC's texture pack for Fallout 3
  • NMC's texture pack for NV
  • etc.

Mods recommended for user interface:

  • MTUI + aHUD + iHUD + uHUD
  • Darnified UI
  • etc.

Mods recommended for ???? :

  • etc. etc. etc.

 

TJ
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@Proph: The game definately

@Proph: The game definately needs levelled, that wasn't what I meant. Just once I'd like to come across a level 50 deathclaw. PMP Also allows you to level each skill up to lvl 200.

@Risewild: Yes you can customize the rate at which each skill gains independantly. May not be for everyone but definately makes for an interesting playthrough. Added to my "must use mods" as soon as I tried it out.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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yea idk tj, the bit of a lot

yea idk tj, the bit of a lot of these mods already existing is true. i didn't post not knowing that either.. (except for pmp)

but specificaly about the xp gain, even tho you can *fix* ttw by downloading 1 of several of those kinds of mods for yourself doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. my best way to put this would be describing an unfinished mod. vanilla lvl style doesn't work with ttw, that's 1 of the bigger reasons this thread exists.

example: it's like downloading a single mod in parts. you want a flashlight but you have to download the flashlight's effect, physical flashlight, and toggle function all separately. kinda silly.

--------------

that said, knowing about pmp. how do the dev's (and the rest of you guys) feel about incorporating MCM and PMP into ttw, with permission and given credit, obviously. being that could be an option and like someone posted earlier (i can't find it now) about additional work on the dev's that's "not needed", this could solve the xp/skills/lvl issue to everyone's desire, and save work on the devs. all at the small cost of asking for permission and giving credit.

-----------------------

EDIT: i just wna add that i think this is a small issue with a simple solution but some ppl here are trying too hard to incorporate their own personal preference instead of a way to make it please everyone.

not EVERYONE is doing this, plz dnt quote this against me...just bare in mind an ideal solution instead of a personal preference, i may have made that mistake earlier with suggesting %50 so strongly but this thread so far has shown some ppl strangely want some astronomically different things.

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TJ
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It could technically be

It could technically be argued that balance was an issue with both vanilla games as well. FO3/NV both pretty much peaked at level 20-25. Anything higher and it wasn't a challenge unless you were in one of the DLC areas. I can remember playing vanilla FNV on 360 when it first came out and starting a character, snagging some of the better weapons hidden near the beginning of the game, and heading north from Goodsprings toward Vegas at level 3 or 4 just because it was a challenge. I'd wager to bet at this point most of the people on this forum could attempt that and make it to Freeside with little to no issues. TTW needs to be balanced for the sake of being greater than the sum of all it's parts (FO3 and NV respectively,) but to say TTW is incomplete because it's only part of a mod is a bit unfair when you think about the fact that anything past level 20 vanilla FO3 with no DLC throws the balance off. NV was never balanced properly to begin with and it's definately more incomplete than what we've got here.

 

That said, I'm fairly certain we'll all be happy with what we get in the end. Also, remember that when this is finished it wont be Fallout 3 or New Vegas. It'll be TTW: A new game to mod for (In a sense.)

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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tjmidnight420 wrote:

tjmidnight420 wrote:

It could technically be argued that balance was an issue with both vanilla games as well.

i just wna stop right there before finishing ur post. i had posted earlier that the xp bit would "even be a fix for the vanilla game" WITH a 2nd game to compensate for the time. as the game is slow-paced and it should be played this way anyways, all the more reason to add it.

i'll edit this post later.

------------------

ok, i agree with pretty much all of that. and i already see TTW as it's own game, yes. but i feel like what ur saying is all the more reason to slow down xp gain at least by half, if not more. ofc, as said over and over in this thread, no 1 person is happy with any 1 proposed solution so the % would have to be configurable. point being, vanilla xp gain is NO GOOD for ttw. again..it's why this thread exists, at least a big part of it.

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TJ
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I can agree with that. What

I can agree with that. What about lowering the default XP gain to 60-75% of where it is now for TTW. When Jax updates the leveled lists forward thinking would be to scale them past the vanilla level cutoff of 50. When you're at level 50 (which IMO should remain the vanilla cap for TTW) you'll be seeing level 50, 51, or 52 leveled creatures/ NPC depending on the cap for that particular list. Jax could still scale the lists up to for example 80 or 100, but vanilla wouldn't touch anything past the cutoff. I believe the highest mulitplier on a list that I've seen is something like 1.25 or 1.50 of the player level, but he could tweak that as he saw fit as well. Then a recommended mod for TTW could be a level cap 80 or 100 mod. The game would then pull from the higher levels in the lists when the player hit a level over 100.

Example:

TTW Max Player level | list multiplier = highest level pulled from list.

50 | 50 * 1.25 = 62.5 (Rounded down)

So properly balanced without an uncapper at the maximum level we would be seeing leveled creatures/NPCs at level 62.

Example from the same list with a level 100 mod:

100| (100 * 1.25) = 125

Note that I'm not certain the game would allow him to set creature levels in the lists higher than the max level in game, but I'm thinking it should. Combine this with slower xp leveling and it takes longer to get to whatever max your game is set to so it doesn't get too vicious too quickly. Seperate esps could be whipped up that just change the rate of xp gains that you could just add to a page in the mod release section and it should pretty well cater to just about everybody. I would think 25, 50, and then one for back to 100% xp gain would suffice, but you could split into thirds as well.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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i agree with you that lvl cap

i agree with you that lvl cap of the player shouldn't exceed vanilla 50. i've only argued slower lvl'ing. and if he could do that, that sounds like a fair formula to me..

as for xp % modifier, i still think it would be nice to see that built-in with configurable option. like an MCM thing maybe, but that could wait til future ttw development. basic deployment that you mentioned is EXACTLY what im talking about and i have no complaints about the details.

only 2 things now are: A) does everyone else agree with this? and B) if this is put to rest with deployment exactly as me and you agree on, the only other issue is this WSG/fnv travel bit.. (i'll post my ideal solution and reasoning later on, although i believe i already mentioned it..nonetheless)

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thermador
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tjmidnight420 wrote:Note that

tjmidnight420 wrote:

Note that I'm not certain the game would allow him to set creature levels in the lists higher than the max level in game, but I'm thinking it should.

Just checked.  Yeah you can do that for both creatures and NPCs.  You can change a static level tp as high as 32767.  If you check the box "PC Level Mult", you can set the multiplier as high as 10 max.  So if the player is level 25, the creature would be level 250 ...  Who knows what that would do though.

 

 

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Well in my opinion whatever

Well in my opinion whatever comes in the future will be ok with me, I just tend to post here not of a personal view but as a bit of a devil's attorney (I try to think of the good and bad of all options) since I am a tester my thinking is what users will think and/or want/like etc, and believe me that is enough to keep me busy with my thoughts for days and I will never be close to reach all of the preferences, tastes or needs of users. I just throw ideas and thoughts in case no one has already thought of those stuffs .

To be honest most people posting here are at least quite experienced players and know alot of great mods but you may be sure, as soon as TTW keeps getting more famous and bigger alot of not so experienced players will appear and their needs, preferences and view of the game will be very different. That's why I keep throwing stuff at you guys so you can cover most of the things that might arrive in the future .

Now I will talk about MY opinion on the gameplay, level cap and XP. TTW is a huge game, really really huge (I have been testing it for ages and just recently got out of the CW into NV and still couldn't test every single map location or quest in DC), it is definitely too big for the XP system of vanilla NV (but that I think everyone here agrees). So even though I just found out and already love that PMP mod I have ringing in my ears the words of Jax saying that the main objective is to make FO3 play seemingly in FNV changing only the most necessary things about the gameplay of NV, and his other words that he will stay away from outside mods to do it (rather having the team making the modifications instead of already made mods) so I think that implementing PMP will be out of question. The idea that I think makes the TTW gameplay and experience be more like vanilla FNV without the overpowering of the player is gaining XP slower, more hours of game, more areas, more killing, more equipment choices = more stuff to do before reaching the level cap and I think this option will please most of the experienced players but might not please those less experienced ones since most players the first times they play a game they want to level level level to see all the options they have on how to make a kick@$$ character (but let's forget that for now since I am talking about my opinion, sorry I keep talking about what players might like or not, old habits die hard). So like I was saying slower XP would be the way to go to, another thing is without a doubt let the enemies level depending on our level and not have a limit cap on them, some enemies after the player is high level just need to stop being such wimp's others to be honest don't matter (like giant rats, we don't want to see a giant rat being able to kill an entire town just because the player is high level or something ).

So in the end my personal taste would be increase the level cap, but to keep the FNV gameplay it would be better (maybe) to reduce XP gain, and in either case (increase LV cap and reduce XP) let the enemies (maybe not the wimpy ones like the rats or mole rats or other ones that most people in the wastes are supposed to be able to kill) grow with the player without a level cap shorter than the player.

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I have a mod in the mod

I have a mod in the mod release section that halves XP gain. I'm planning on doing 25% and 75% as well. If Jax lowers XP gain in TTW I'll make one to return it to 100% just so all bases are covered. I'm fixing to be out of town for a week. I'll be around the forums a bit but wont be able to play or mod. When I get back I might start messing with either the level cap or the lists, depending on if they're already being worked on and what Jax has planned for them.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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While reducing XP gain is

While reducing XP gain is always a viable solution, the problem is not the players like us (who are familiar with the game and can succeed with handicaps), but are the average and beginner players who will be interested in the mod. I'm sure there would be more than a few people who would look at TTW and get interested, and then as soon as they find out that their leveling speed was halved for balancing reasons would refuse to play. There are plenty of people that thoroughly enjoy the thrill of leveling up and getting to pick their next perk, and I think that it would hurt TTW's popularity if it took it upon itself to stifle that aspect of the game.

 

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That is my thoughts exactly

That is my thoughts exactly on why halving the xp is a poor solution. The problem is that there is no vanilla friendly solution, other than getting reset upon head shot, which is complex and presents logistical errors.

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I'm not trying to stifle

I'm not trying to stifle anything. My mod is not meant to be incorporated into TTW. I don't think anything but a rebalance should be done for vanilla TTW. I'm just trying to help accommodate everyone here. If you don't want the half XP mod don't use it. If you want faster than vanilla take that mod, open just it and FalloutNV.esm in FNVEdit and look at the modifiers. It's pretty self explanitory. Every where you see I've halved the vanilla rate set it to double what's in the box directly to the left of it and you'll have 2x XP. Set it to any value you want just try to keep it balanced. There's only like 10-12 entries and only one change per entry so it's not difficult at all.

 

EDIT: It's also worth noting that the only solution I've found to actually raise the level cap past 50 requires NVSE. Simply adjusting the gamesetting for max player level doesn't work for Ultimate Editon/All DLCs.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Forgive me, I was not bashing

Forgive me, I was not bashing your mod in the least. I actually think 1/2 xp is the best solution, except for the barrier to entry created for newbies. For my part, I do not use the same save constantly. I frequently recreate a new character and play different things in different order, so I rarely actually hit L50. Point is, I keep out of this discussion because it is not a problem I am familiar with. Most of the solutions other than 1/2 xp require too much modification which then creates issues with mod compatible.

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Just to mediate between Jax

Just to mediate between Jax and TJ (also touching base on what RiseWild said), maybe it is best than, we don't touch the xp for vanilla TTW but really advertise this xp mod. listing it as not only a 'popular' mod, but as a HIGHLY Recommended mod for ttw. Perhaps it will be more built for ttw in the future with mcm compatibility (As tj and I discussed), so something we'll maybe see in the future towards ttw completion.

As for reset upon FNV, i just don't agree with that. It brings me back to why I looked into this mod after seeing RFCW, ppl just want to go from 1 place to another. We can RECOMMEND balance, but can't force it upon players.

--------------------------------

As for this WSG business, i only mention this since I've brought up the bit, "force it upon players". I've seen debate over whether the WSG quest must be completed before being allowed to go to new vegas. including speculation of dropping a skill lvl, or removing some perks and things along those lines.

fuck all of that. no offense at all to the ppl who pitched those ideas, but you need to understand the weight that holds...how significant of a change that is to Fallout as a whole. Allow me to explain:

In vanilla FO3, as it would appear when playing ttw, we all know that one can simply waltz out of 101 and go straight to Tranquility Lane and skip a massive chunk of story. The player is allowed to do this, BECAUSE.. fallout is an open-world environment with as little limitation as possible on what the player can do and where the player can go. It's a sandbox, a do-as-you-please game. Why else are the modding tools permitted to us? So we can change what we want, have what we want, do what we want, go where we want...in all its originallity.

To perceive this in a TTW standpoint: New Vegas is like a dlc, with dlc's of it's own. A very, very large game..as we all already agree.  Now notice, some of these dlc's within FO3(?) and FNV have recommended lvl's to achieve before entering. ex: lonesome road. However these dlc's are not inaccessible to the player, because the player can go where they please, when they please. Recommendations are all we see, so why force something upon a player now?? Why take away a possible decision that a character of the fallout universe can possibly make?

That's why this is a big no-no, it's the first and only thing that stops a player from making their own decision.

As for my own proposition: if you don't want to see the WSG's around FNV if the quest wasn't done, I'm sure it's a lot easier to remove them. Likewise for purified water.

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Krux, that was bluntly put

Krux, that was bluntly put but nonetheless wise.  Fallout is meant to give maximum choice to the player.  The key is not to restrict choice, but rather to simply present consequences for the choices made (e.g. getting your ass kicked by deathclaws if you head into the Divide at level 1).  That's why I think a light touch is best.  Anything extra, like finding the Platinum Chip in the RobCo plant and joining Mojave Express, or like messing with XP gain rates, can be implemented in TTW-blessed mods.  (Does anyone using this *not* have a load order with 20 or 40 mods??).  However...

"As for reset upon FNV, i just don't agree with that. It brings me back to why I looked into this mod after seeing RFCW, ppl just want to go from 1 place to another."

I disagree; plenty of people *want* to play the wastelands sequentially and get knocked back to level 1 in between.  Plus it's more lore-friendly, in that it abides by the whole premise of New Vegas.  This particular issue is divisive enough that I really think TTW has to cover both possibilities.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

Forgive me, I was not bashing your mod in the least.

We're golden. I hadn't even seen your post when I wrote mine. Was actually referring to this when I typed that up:

Proph wrote:

. There are plenty of people that thoroughly enjoy the thrill of leveling up and getting to pick their next perk, and I think that it would hurt TTW's popularity if it took it upon itself to stifle that aspect of the game.

I just want to go on record to say now that I do not develop TTW. I just help out around here when I can. That said, my views and opinions (and mods for that matter) do not reflect the views and opinions of the TTW team. As I stated before: I'm doing XP gain modifiers, not as something to become part of TTW but someting that can be recommended and also give choice to the player which one to use. When I'm done with the other three or four I'll look into a viable solution for the level cap that doesn't require NVSE. If it comes down to using NVSE I'm just gonna recommend the one I found that supposedly works. Again, haven't even tested on that front. Last thing I plan on making is a rebalance mod. Anything I create can be integrated into TTW if the TTW Team so chooses, but if they don't want to use anything I make I'm ok with that. I'm not trying to force them into integrating anything into TTW.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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subtledoctor wrote:

subtledoctor wrote:

Krux, that was bluntly put but nonetheless wise.

thank you, and yes, i call it as i see it.

subtledoctor wrote:

I disagree; plenty of people *want* to play the wastelands sequentially and get knocked back to level 1 in between.  Plus it's more lore-friendly, in that it abides by the whole premise of New Vegas.  This particular issue is divisive enough that I really think TTW has to cover both possibilities.

I suppose that makes enough ppl to maybe make a MOD that allows this. I still completely disagree that this should be a vanilla, default, ttw feature. Which is really all I was disagreeing with, mods are options.. no reason to disagree with options. Which goes back to what I said about forcing things upon players. So I'd have to say we disagree to disagree, lol.

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TJ
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As far as how to handle

As far as how to handle getting shot, I think a clever way to go about it would be to add an affect to the player that removes some perks, skills, and maybe a few SPECIAL points. This would simulate the negative affect being shot in the head has on you. As you play afterwards at certain timed intervals you would "remember" a perk or skill. Eventually you could start recovering enough mentally to get a SPECIAL point or two back. The longer you play after the initial wound, the more you would recover. If done right this could be used as sort of a "Level Up" for after you hit level 50. Just a thought. Could possibly be expanded upon and fleshed out a bit but I thought it was somewhat intriguing.

EDIT: I guess apparently this has already been pitched.

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tjmidnight420 wrote:

tjmidnight420 wrote:

EDIT: I guess apparently this has already been pitched.

yea, not a fan of it personally.

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TJ
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Was just posting in Q2005's

Was just posting in Q2005's Equipment Looted release thread and I had a thought: When you exit V101 the Hardcore mode menu comes up. What if instead of just Hardcore option, there were several boxes asking the player "How do you want to play?" Would you like Hardcore mod to be enabled? Would you like to have your equipment looted when you get off the train and if so what version? Most importantly to this thread: How do you want to handle XP gain/ level cap? Would you like to be able to travel freely between Mojave and CW or would you like lore based constraints?

Better yet, make it one menu that replaces the Hardcore menu: How do you play Fallout?

  • Lore friendly with Hardcore rates (Hardcore ON, Must complete WSG quest to go to Mojave, Bullet takes away some skills)
  • Lore Lite With Hardcore Rates(Hardcore ON, Must complete WSG quest to go to Mojave, Bullet has no effect)
  • Bullet Lite with Hardcore Rates (Hardcore ON, Free travel at any time, Bullet takes away some skills)
  • Hardcore rates only (Hardcore ON, Free travel at any time, Bullet has no effect)
  • Lore friendly no Hardcore rates (Hardcore OFF, Must complete WSG quest to go to Mojave, Bullet takes away some skills)
  • Bullet Lite no Hardcore Rates (Hardcore OFF, Free travel at any time, Bullet takes away some skills)
  • Lore Lite no Hardcore Rates (Hardcore OFF, Must complete WSG quest to go to Mojave, Bullet has no effect)
  • Hardcore rates only
  • No Effect

With an additional 3 setting modifier at the bottom (so you can only choose one of the three):

  • XP is Halfed
  • Max Level is doubled
  • Do nothing.

This would present no extra menu boxes as it could replace the hardcore menu box at the beginning the be forgotten about. You could put it directly after the Hardcore menu as well if that would work better. I think this would pretty well accommodate everyone and every option. You could even add in another 4 setting modifier for Q2005's equipment looted mod if the team so desired/ Q granted permission to use. Any input?

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Yea that's where I was

Yea that's where I was originally taking this. Kinda goes back to my initial suggestions back in another thread, but Jax said the whole menu thing is too complicated for right now. We're just dodging it with as many shortcuts for now as possible. I'm sure a late release outside of Alpha would have this set up by then.

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Its not that the menus are

Its not that the menus are too complicated for me to implement, its that we are trying to keep as few menus as possible. If we were building this with the idea that it is a mod, we would have plenty of customization. We are building TTW as though it were a whole new game, so we will pick the one "Best" option and let mods do the rest.

I am looking into a solution that steepens the XP curve allowing early levels to be obtained at the normal rate while causing later levels to become farther between.

Unfortunately, with a game this big, boosting the level cap just isn't viable. Even at 50 you destroy everyone and everything you encounter, even with a sub-optimal build. You can only scale deathclaws so far before the question becomes "Why the hell haven't these things taken over the world!?"

The way I see it, halving XP is the best solution, but the major drawback is the barrier to entry. If I can preserve the first... 10? 20? levels' XP requirements while increasing the remaining levels' xp requirements, I can get the best of both worlds, allowing the player to come into their own fairly quickly but also preventing them from hitting level cap too early.

As always I'm open for suggestions, criticisms etc...

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I think that is a reasonable

I think that is a reasonable solution. I would say around 15 or so, 10 wouldn't be too unreasonable but most people wouldn't be happy about it. Here's another thought: (I'm having alot of these lately, bet it's getting annoying) When player reaches level 10 bump XP gain down to like 70 percent. At level 20-25 bump it again, down to 50. When player gets to 40 make them work to max out, drop the xp gain down to like 25 percent. Learning curve that scales, not too much of a pain in the ass to implement, and completely invisible to anyone that's not followed this thread.

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Thats exactly what I'm

Thats exactly what I'm planning.

Well, ideally I'll do the opposite and boost the XP requirements, but I'm not sure how easy that will be, I'll probably end up doing as you suggested.

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I didn't even think that was

I didn't even think that was possible, I just been talking about halving it the whole way.

But after reading what you said, I was thinking about what Tj just said.. let it go 100% up to a point, than 50% up to a point, than 25% the rest of the way. Or something along those lines, just for example.

So...are we at an agreement yet?

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Yeah, it's possible. I'm not

Yeah, it's possible. I'm not the best at scripting for FNV but I believe it would be something along the lines of a quest with the script attached. When you get to level X the script adjusts the 15-20 some odd xp related game setting records to a different setting, then adjusts it again when you get to level Y.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Added another mod to my list

Added another mod to my list of possible solutions: XFO-NV

Here's the list so far

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JaxFirehart wrote:You can

JaxFirehart wrote:

You can only scale deathclaws so far before the question becomes "Why the hell haven't these things taken over the world!?"

I don't know why, but this nearly made me fall out of my chair laughing.

JaxFirehart wrote:

The way I see it, halving XP is the best solution, but the major drawback is the barrier to entry. If I can preserve the first... 10? 20? levels' XP requirements while increasing the remaining levels' xp requirements, I can get the best of both worlds, allowing the player to come into their own fairly quickly but also preventing them from hitting level cap too early.

As always I'm open for suggestions, criticisms etc...

This is a very difficult problem to solve. I agree... the player is pretty much in god mode at level 50. Going past it gets pretty ridiculous.

I would agree with your assessment that the best way to solve this is to increase the amount of xp required to obtain levels. And, I agree that if you simply double the xp, the first few levels would take MUCH longer to obtain, preventing the player from boosting a few key skills needed to play their archetype successfully from the beginning.

How about adding a hidden perk to the player that works like a reverse "Lessons Learned" perk as soon as the player leaves the Vault or Doc Mitchell's house? It would take a bit of grunt work, but it wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement, and by the time the player was level 40, the xp gained would be getting cut by 40%, which would seem more significant than the 1% hit at level 1.

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I haven't looked very closely

I haven't looked very closely at this quite yet, but my hope is to make a logarithmic equation, rather than a linear equation. I haven't hashed out any details on the equation quit yet but the goal is to have it smoothly ramp up the xp required to level up. By changing xp required rather than xp earned, it is better hidden from the player.

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Well, I was looking in the

Well, I was looking in the wiki at the settings for leveling... here's the base formula.

 

n = (n - 1) * ((n - 2) / 2 * iXPBumpBase + iXPBase)

where iXPBumpBase = 150 and iXPBase = 200 and n is the level to be reached.

I had an idea that you could try to tweak this formula by simply changing iXPBumpBase.

For level 1 & 2, set IXPBumpBase to IXPBumpBase * log 50 IXPBumpBase    (50 is the base... couldn't figure out how to type a subscript)

Decrement the base by 1 every other level. So level 2 will still be base 50, level 3 will be base 49 and so forth.

This will give you something like this:

Exp needed for level 2 = 200 (it's currently 200)

Exp needed for level 3 = 593 (it's currently 550)

Exp needed for level 4 = 1179 (currently 1050)

so... these lower levels will not be far off from what the currently are...

However...

Exp needed for level 40 = 171546 (currently 118950)

Exp needed for level 50 = 284392 (currently 186200)

 

So, this does give a nice boost to the amount of exp needed, it still keeps the earlier levels within reason. I know that plugging a log function into a linear equation may not have been exactly what you were thinking, but it does manage to flatten out the curve so that the exp needed doesn't become prohibitively high too quickly.

Anyways, that's just an idea I thought I would throw out there. If I have any more I'll toss them out there too.

 

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That sounds like exactly what

That sounds like exactly what I was thinking.

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OK there was no good way to

OK there was no good way to implement a logarithmic function for XP. I copped out and made a perk which reduces the XP by 10% for every 6 or 7 levels after level 10.

The XP from 1 to 50 is doubled.

By the time you hit level 49 XP is reduced by 70%, so it takes about 3 times as much to go from 49 to 50.

The XP penalty never goes below 70% so its fine if you have a mod that extends the level cap.

Can be found on the alpha page.

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Hey, if it works, it's no cop

Hey, if it works, it's no cop out.

The log function might have been a more elegant solution, but from what the wiki says, using it could prohibitively tie up system resources and cause a performance hit. 

The perk is probably a safer route to go.

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How is it going to work with

How is it going to work with the Lessons Learned perk? Depending on which multiplier is applied first, you might end up with some funky results.

 

Also, Cirosan's Classic Overhual mod was able to increase the amount of XP required for each level by about 30%, but I'm pretty sure it's a linear function and might not work for what you're trying to do. Still, might be worth a look to see how he did it to see if it's possible to increase the exp requirements for just 20-50.

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Both are multiplicative

Both are multiplicative bonuses, meaning the order does not matter. At level 49, with Lessons Learned, XP is reduced by about 45%. Total XP to go from 1 to 50, assuming you take lessons learned at level 26, is increased by about 50% (1.5x).

The XP requirements are procedurally generated, so there is no way to modify only certain levels reliably.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

OK there was no good way to implement a logarithmic function for XP. I copped out and made a perk which reduces the XP by 10% for every 6 or 7 levels after level 10.

The XP from 1 to 50 is doubled.

By the time you hit level 49 XP is reduced by 70%, so it takes about 3 times as much to go from 49 to 50.

The XP penalty never goes below 70% so its fine if you have a mod that extends the level cap.

Can be found on the alpha page.

Well I can test it if you want me too all I have to do it start a new game with it on an see how it goes.

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*touches jax* ty

*touches jax*

ty

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luthien wrote:

luthien wrote:

Here's another option for consideration. Since we're starting in DC, you could cap the player's level at 30 (which FO3 content is balanced for) until they complete Broken Steel and travel to the Mojave where the cap is increased to 50.

The only problem I see with that solution is what if the player gets out of the vault and goes straight to NV, would he still have a cap of 30 until he would complete Broken Steel? that would mean that he could pretty much play all of NV game and DLC's with a level cap of 30. And if the level cap would be increased to the normal 50 after he arrives in NV then the problem would still be the same as before Since I arrived at this forum I have seen many (really many) players that install TTW and go straight (or just make a few quests in DC and then go) to NV.

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luthien wrote:

luthien wrote:

Risewild wrote:

luthien wrote:

Here's another option for consideration. Since we're starting in DC, you could cap the player's level at 30 (which FO3 content is balanced for) until they complete Broken Steel and travel to the Mojave where the cap is increased to 50.

The only problem I see with that solution is what if the player gets out of the vault and goes straight to NV, would he still have a cap of 30 until he would complete Broken Steel? that would mean that he could pretty much play all of NV game and DLC's with a level cap of 30. And if the level cap would be increased to the normal 50 after he arrives in NV then the problem would still be the same as before Since I arrived at this forum I have seen many (really many) players that install TTW and go straight (or just make a few quests in DC and then go) to NV.

That seems like a purpose defeated to me. People do crazy things, I suppose.

I agree, I only ever go to NV after I beat at least the main quest and a couple of DLC's (I do prefer beating all of the DLC's). But some people juts like to do things in NV first and then do DC ones or mix them, I guess that is the point of TTW after all, making FO3 a part of FNV so it makes sense that the player has the freedom to come and go whenever they want to .

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I completely agree with

I'm using Project Nevada at the moment, it works fine with TTW. I think there should be a recommendation on the homepage that users of TTW download Project Nevada. But there shouldn't be any XP or leveling changes coded directly into TTW. Project Nevada used alongside TTW provides a brilliant gaming experience due to other changes it makes.

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Following up on this issue,

Following up on this issue, is there a mod already that resets the player level to 1 once you get shot?  I'm useless as a modder or I would do it myself.  All it would need to do is reset the character and keep the whole character building aspects of Doc Mitchells place intact.  For this playthrough I'll try that out. I don't even care about losing perks, really (although keeping some for the SPECIAL bonuses like ant might/ant sight would be cool). I'll use Practice Makes Perfect for next playthrough to see which one I prefer.

What I have been doing in the mean time is adjusting XP down with PN.  It seems to be working OK so far.

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For anyone using Practice

For anyone using Practice Makes Perfect for a TTW playthrough, would you mind posting the ratios you have it set to? I am using a mix of PN (50% xp) with PNP (set to various values for different skills) and using PNP to tie leveling to both XP and skill gain. So far, I have done a fair bit in FO3 + the Zeta DLC (traveled to NV once to trigger NVEC's startup then headed back to the CW), but I haven't got much past level 8 or 9, and certain skills, like lockpicking, science and medicine are leveling VERY slowly (despite having the values to a 50 rate in PNP's menu), so much so that I am entering areas where the lower safes/terminals no longer have easy or very easy at all (making it impossible to level...). 

Admins: If this needs to be moved to another thread, feel free to do so. This is the only place I had seen people posting about PNP. 

/befo

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Hi, Ive most this tread and

Hi, Ive most this tread and if it is about leveling up and keeping it fair then I found a mod on nexus called Unlimited leveling http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/49294. I haven't installed TTW. But it was just a thought. It was up loaded a couple day age. And if this thread is old I just found this site last night.

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I don't know if this has been

I don't know if this has been suggested, but in The Pitt, if you kill the gate guards you get brutally beaten... that'd cost some levels, I think

-Conso

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I don't think so.  If the

I don't think so.  If the game let me, I'd be the one doing the beating. :)  Dumb disabling player controls.

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