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Darkersun
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: XP values and Level Cap

Moved and combined threads so that we can have a cohesive discussion of how to manage XP issues. -thermador

----

 

When playing both games together, it could be nice to have XP reduced.

 

Why I suggest that:

- you will hit levelcap very soon

- everybody in the second wasteland (depends on walkthrough) will have high level equip

 

Ideas how to change:

- You get shoot in the head so maybe you forgot something (losing some exp lvl etc.)

- reduce overall xp

 

Maybe that's just an idea for a small extra mod to keep the games feel more natural together

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Edited by: thermador on 10/30/2012 - 07:46 Reason: moved and combined threads
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That's an issue I was worried

That's an issue I was worried about as well.  I assume they won't want to make the changes, due to the team wanting NV to play as vanilla as possible.  I'm not sure how they'd feel about this.

No matter what, I'll be modding the feature into my own game, once a clean version comes out.

thermador
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A really small mod could be

A really small mod could be made that changes the rate at which XP is rewarded.  Or you can change it on the fly in the menus in Project Nevada.  Or you can install one of the many, many mods that rebalance FNV in some way (there is a good list in this thread).

I don't know if it's within TTW's scope to make those kind of rebalancing changes - I think most people would rather do it themselves with other mods.

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I think this change should be

I think this change should be made by mods but, we may make an optional file that does just this. Giving the player the choice to use it or other mods that do something similar. 

I am a bit concerned about this myself but, feel it is beyond the scope of TTW. 

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Well I'm with you then chuck.

Well I'm with you then chuck. We should just leave it be for now, and release an add-in file to tweak that stuff.

chucksteel
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This is similar to the NV Pre

This is similar to the NV Pre War books being able to by bought by the East coast BoS. We talked about nerfing the XP for selling books but, maybe the NV books don't give any XP and, only give caps. 

I don't know what we should really do now. I'm just thinking out loud. 

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If someone wants to drag pre

If someone wants to drag pre-war books from Nevada back to the DC library...

There are easier ways to level up.

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I agree with Dsythe's

I agree with Dsythe's thinking. If you start in NV and collect every book you find, you might get 50 books (did it once long ago don't remember exactly). By the time you fight your way to the NV train station, ride to DC, walk to the library, you get 5000 caps (pretty nice I guess, though a couple mid level weapons do the same thing) and only 500xp, which is basically pointless considering you lugged around 50 pounds of books to get it.

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anyone that serious about

anyone that serious about wanting to 'grind up' xp can easily use the console and either player.additem some book, scrap metal, whatever, or just set their level. There's so much xp in New Vegas by itself that the books don't really matter (I took 'skilled' from character creation and capped out before I finished the third of four dlc's, and I was only half way through the main quest line)

(I had a 'vigerous' discussion once with someone who felt there was a major gap between, for example, exploiting the Operation Anchorage bug to get near infinite health equipment from the simulation, and using the player repair menu command. He was quite vociferous that using commands was being a vile cheat while exploiting bugs and glitches was essentially 'fair play' It was a different game actually but the point was the same. He's one of those guys that would use the mantis bug to level cap out and not have it bother him, but would throw a fit at someone using the command prompt to give themselves a hundred or two extra caps so they can buy that silencer for the varmit rifle that Chet has.)

The only way it would have any kind of real cross game impact is if you implement factions for groups like the BoS and book trading has an affect on that faction level.

I came here to lurk and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum.

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I'm sure i'm not the only one

I'm sure i'm not the only one who has realized that given the amount of experience available in FNV we can reach the level cap of 50, while not easily, it is doable. With the addition of FO3 and all its experience worth It won't be a far stretch to say that we could reach level 80 with TTW. So I propose that we revamp the leveling system and increase the cap so that those of us who still want to feel rewarded after getting a kill 50 hours into game play, we can. After a certain point we would reach 100% on all the skills and our only reward would be perks.

So what I would suggest is to bring back the original Fallout's skill system which allowed for going above and beyond 100% and going into 200%. Now what would this serve us? Well I imagine the people here could be quite creative and create incentives for us to go beyond 100 and create perks for those of us who do. Not only perks but weapon damage and other in-game effects. I believe this is probably a tall order, but I also think that it's something that should be addressed? 

What do you guys think?

 

Edit: Aw, I didn't realize there was this post already, thanks for merging it Admin :)

 

thermador
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Well, something needs to be

Well, something needs to be done about XP and levels. 

Either the pace of leveling can be slowed dramatically - you can do this yourself with the in-game config menu in Project Nevada - or the level cap will need to be increased.  For me, slowing the leveling would make the game more boring.

To go above level 50, there are four tasks that need to be done:

  1. Skill benefits above skill level 100
    otherwise, what does increasing your skills really do for you. 
  2. Increase the hard level cap
    otherwise, you hit max XP and getting more XP doesn't count toward your next level
  3. Fix the level up screen
    otherwise, it doesn't work right when you go above the level cap
  4. Debug the game
    so that any conditionals that might use the function "GetLevel" still work for characters with a level over 50. According to some of the posts I've read, the level 50 max cap is "hard coded" (whatever that means) into various places in the game, so it can be difficult to deal with.  For example, three dog will stop talking about you on the radio after level 20 (fix for that issue for FO3).

For Fallout 3 there were several mods, all of which needed to be used together:

  1. Wasteland Mastery - gives skill benefits above 100, up to skill level 250
  2. Level Cap Workaround - allows you to level up past the level cap of 30
  3. Level Up No Lock for FO3 - makes the level up screen work past the level cap of 30 - or alternatively, Level Cap Increaser

For Fallout New Vegas, there was a similar set of three mods that basically do the same thing:

  1. Boosted Skill Effects - gives skill benefits above 100, up to skill level 255
  2. Max Level Adjustment - allows you to level up past the level cap of 50, uses NVSE as described here.
  3. Level Up No Lock for FNV - makes the level up screen work past the level cap of 30

Alternatively, you can use Project Nevada's rebalance component to manage all of your leveling settings, and then use this PN uncapper mod to raise PN's max level from 50 to something higher.

I haven't tested any of these various uncapper mods myself so obviously I don't know if any of these even work properly.

It would be great if we could come up with our own "TTW level up mod" that took care of all three of those things and was fully compatible with TTW. 

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I agree with thermador here,

I agree with thermador here, if we stop leveling at 50 and just decrease the xp the character gets then the game might become boring, because it's leveling that makes the player feel rewarded for the time put into the game, and with leveling comes better loot from most enemies and stuff. I can understand why in NV the cap reached 50 with all the DLCs and stop, but in a game of the length of TTW level 50 is low, I am almost level 40 and didn't even got out of the CW, never been to NV yet and still need to start the Broken Steel main mission, what if the first time I go to NV and I already reached the level cap? then the game might be quite boring if I was a normal player and not a tester because I would be playing the entire Fallout New Vegas and it's DLCs without ever leveling up again. Also even with the removal of many skill books from the Capital Wasteland and replacing them with magazines there are still more books than FNV which would make reaching 100 in skills easier, but if we increase the 100 skill cap to even just 150 would make maxing it out much more like NV intended it. And now I go on perks, it's obvious that with lonesome road (I think, can't remember) the level cap increased to 50 and there was three maximum level perks (Ain't Like That Now, Just Lucky I'm Alive and Thought You Died) that we are only supposed to pick one of those so they could be changed to be only available if none of the others were already picked or something, unless it would be ok with letting the player pick two or all of them, but I think that would be going against of what those perks represent.

Also if the level cap would be increased we would need more perks to choose from (although I am not really sure, maybe with both games we would have enough perks, never counted them all ) but what comes into mind is something like "More Perks".

Just my two cents on the matter .

Darkersun
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If skill is set to go over

If skill is set to go over 100 and give benefits & Level to go over 50, that would be good for TTW.

It would give Perks like Thief and Daddys Boy etc. more meaning and it would make more sense to invest in them.

I think the problem is that enemy's would not scale after lvl 50 and encounters would be very easy.

This would be a lot of rebalance work I think but it would be awesome.

Reducing Xp sounds like the easy way out of this.

 

Maybe reducing XP, uncapping skill (because of skillbooks & co) and one perk per level could help.

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
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- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

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I would say that this is

I would say that this is something for another mod. If Project Nevada does it, as does others, then that problem is already solved.

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I disagree with lowering the

I disagree with lowering the rate at which we gain xp. You see the problem with that is that as we go through and do quests and what not, we find more and more powerfull weapons, now I don't know about you but I think being level 12 with the firelance or Tesla-Beaton Prototype. With those weapons the npc's don't stand a chance, why? Because we aren't supposed to have that kind of weaponry at such a low level. If we progress the with lower xp there will be no challenge because we are meant to level up with xp and better weaponry.

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On the old whiteboard for the

On the old whiteboard for the 'Prototype' merge project earlier this year, I remember this being discussed.

 

If the skills and levels for the player are offset, the issue remains of completing the first world then all of the speech, lock, hack, barter, etc. challenges in the second would be too easy.  With a level cap greater than 50 and skill cap of 255, it could be a percent offset with the first world being lower than the second and having the enemy encounters adjusted accordingly.

 

In testing earlier versions of this project, I immediately become bored of the game as soon as the level cap is reached.  Everything about this project is amazing and wonderfully done, but the general public will soon become aware and this is the main remaining topic that I agree should be discussed.

 

Again, everything in this project is amazing and incredibly stable.  Congratulations to all of you!

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I really think there needs to

I really think there needs to be some kind of solution to this problem, but I don´t think lowering XP levels is the final answer for it. There is one overarching question: How do you want to connect the 2 Wastelands?

Here are 3 scenarios I could think of:

The logical (timeline) approach: The player always starts with the Fallout 3 Storyline and it there is only a one-time chance to leave DC and travel to New Vegas, which is blended over with a "4 years later" Message. Preferably this should only be possible after you finished the main story of FO3 and Broken Steel. This would somehow keep a logical timeline (as much as it is possible, since the Lone wanderer and the courier couldn´t be the same person afaik). When you arrive in New Vegas the player should get shot in the head, which leads to losing his stats. This means the players becomes level 1 again, all stats are reset and all level up perks are removed. What the player should keep are special perks (like Survival Guru, Ant Sight) a certain amount of equipment and money and some kind of bonus perk, which could be called "DC Wasteland legacy" with some bonuses (depending on how you solved FO3), that don´t make FO:NW trivial to play. Also, there would be no possibility to go back to the DC wasteland. Of course this would make some things impossible, like taking DC companions over to new Vegas and vice versa. The whole reason for doing this, is to not trivialize FO:NW, because not having all stats at 100 from the get go and leveling up is an important part of what makes the game enjoyable. This would be my preferred way of doing it, because I value having fun while playing the second story higher, than being able to do wacky stuff like using Jericho in New Vegas. This solution would keep each playthrough as near to the original experience as possible.

The universal approach: The player can either choose in which storyline he wants to start, or there is a default storyline, which allows to travel between the wastelands relatively early (like it is done at the moment). On the plus side almost everything can be done as the player wants it to be done. The problem here is, that the current leveling mechanic simply isn´t fit to handle 2 separate stories played after each other, because there are severe scaling issues, which lead to a trivial gameplay for the second story as a high level character. As you already noted there needs to be some kind of solution which allows a better scaling without making the first story too hard or still trivializing the second story. Reducing XP might be one part of a solution, but it definitely is not the final answer to the problem. But if player freedom is your vision for this mod, then this is the way to go.

The directed approach: In this approach the player should be able to choose his starting storyline. The first story the player chooses should have a level cap, so that you have a level value to balance the second story around. When the first story is finished, the player can start the second story, and everything in the second story needs to scale up to be a challenge for the high level player. In this case you might allow travel between the 2 wastelands after the first one is finished. Essentially the max level of the first story is the equivalent of a level 1 character in the second story. I guess this would be a lot of work, since there are so many things that you need to scale (skill checks, Enemies, loot, prices, perks, SPECIAL stats, skill stats and so on). Practical I think his approach wouldn´t be feasible, since it´s just too much work.

These are the 3 general ways I could see your mod implemented, but of course there could be some in between solutions or even some others I didn´t think of. Currently I think you are going for number 2, and I guess it´s a tough call to change it. I´ll wrap my head around for some sort of solution, but I think the whole leveling system might need a rework if you want this to work out with free traveling.

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I kind of like the idea of

I kind of like the idea of the logical timeline variant. I personally liked Fo3 MUCH more than FNV, something about the destroyed ruins of the nation's capital just appeal to me. It's got a feeling of more gravity and import.

Anyway, I'd prefer at minimum a choice to play either storyline from the beginning. So, New Game: "Would you like to start a game in the DC Wasteland or the Mojave Wasteland" or something similar. Make your choice and go about that story as if that were the game you were playing. I also agree with at minimum finishing the primary story of one Wasteland before going to the other. This should not be a one time chance though, however, it should be pointed out to the player that traveling to the other Wasteland would leave them stuck there until that story was finished (main storyline). Once that story is finished, it is then opened up for travel between the two as desired. An option would be to give the player the option to reset their level upon the travel to the other Wasteland, pointing out the reasons for doing so, but ultimately leaving that decision up to the player. 

As far as leveling speed and such, I say leave it to external mods. Project Nevada has a very good system built in, and it has been pointed out that there are quite a few other mods that do it too. I know personally I'll be playing with PN, and I already play with a 33% reduction in XP because I think FNV levels too fast anyway. With TTW I'll probably drop it to 50%. I believe that FWE had a 50% level rate, and that actually felt pretty good for the game.

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I don't like the idea of

I don't like the idea of limiting someone to one wasteland based on story completion. At all.

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In the near future we will

In the near future we will implement a couple of restrictions on travel from DC to NV.

First, traveling to NV requires completion of the Wasteland Survival Guide so that it's existence in NV is not strange. People have suggested auto-completing the quest if you travel to NV before finishing it, as though someone else had done it in your place. I am against this because that quest is a huge part of FO3. I am also against requiring it to travel to NV; with auto-completion off the table, though, requiring WSG to go to NV is the current best option. I am open to suggestions on that.

Second, there are points in FO3 where leaving for years just isn't feasible. As soon as you rescue Dad from Tranquility Lane, travel to NV will be blocked until completion of the campaign, possibly broken steel. The reason behind this is lore driven: the enclave and bos were, one can assume, basically in stalemate before Project Purity, and James is sleeping his life away in Tranquility Lane. Without your interference, I think it is safe to assume that this pattern would hold for at least a few years, so travel between wastelands is uninhibited. Once you wake up James, big things are afoot. After waking James, whether you are in DC or not, he WILL go to Project Purity, he WILL get it up and running, and the Enclave WILL take it over, killing James in the process. With you gone, though, there is nothing to stop the Enclave from acquiring a GECK, learning how to work Project Purity and distributing FEV throughout the wastes. Because of these circumstances, the player cannot be allowed to leave after waking up James and before taking back Project Purity. I'm pretty firm on this.

Third, starting in DC is mandatory. Thermador has already created an excellent add-on that allows you to start in FNV, but starting in NV will never be supported natively. The reason for this is for simplicity. If we know, generally, which path a player will take, it is easier to balance. If we allow starting in either wasteland, then the amount of work required to ensure a smooth transition grows exponentially. If we had funding and a much larger team that workload would be manageable, at the moment we lack both.

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How about balancing the game

How about balancing the game for a DC to NV walkthrough flow.

The shot in the head could remove some of the highlevel abilitys you have acquiered like:

- PA Training

- some XP and levels ?

For the Travel it would be good to implement some restrictions like traveling to HH. Like weight limit that can be bigger with some skillchecks.

One nice feature I would like is to have some of the equipment stolen (I think somebody already did this).

- Maybe a check for PA or Tesla weapon and a Quest around it. It would be nice to fight someone in your equipment. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

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Hello Jax,

Hello Jax,

after reading your post, I think your first point might be a bit problematic. Even though almost everybody surely will complete the WSG Quest in their playthrough sooner or later, we should not forget, that there is an alternative solution to this quest, which leads to moira not writing the WSG at all. Also, there is still the possibility of moira being killed before she writes the guide. I know that these 2 events are pretty unlikely, but they still might happen, which unfortunately makes trying to explain the existence of the F:NV WSG via this quest rather pointless.

Your second point is pretty good. Perhaps there should be some kind of message that informs the player of him being unable to travel before entering tranquility lane.

Regarding your third point I also think starting in DC is the most logical thing to do.

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I can easily write up a

I can easily write up a script that disables the Wasteland Survival Guide books until you finish the quest. Does anyone foresee a problem with that?

thermador
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That seems like a reasonable

That seems like a reasonable approach to me.

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Second that, if no one made

Second that, if no one made the WSG then it shouldn't be in NV .

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I am for Jax idea

I am all for Jax's idea

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But then, who printed it and

But then, who printed it and carried the dozens/hundreds of copies from DC to Vegas? Personally that seems a pretty flimsy reason. I thought it was neat they were in FNV, but was not exactly seeing as the same book that was written in FO3. Perhaps it was, but I just don't see that as being a high priority trade item.

On a side note, if that is what happened, would Moira be getting royalties from those book sales? If so, she should be loaded on any subsequent trip back to DC. Sure she still runs Craterside Supply because it gives her something to do, but she would certainly be the richest person in Megaton.

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Actually there is a cut

Actually there is a cut content quest in FO3 where the player has to reactivate a printing press in the DC ruins to get the guide printed in mass. Knowing this I liked Obsidians easter egg.

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That would be a good solution

That would be a good solution Jax.

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I had this same issue when

I had this same issue when playing RFCW and TTW Beta... when I hit level 50 I got a bit bored.

The solutions I came up with...

Increase the level cap to 100... this wasn't that great because around level 60-65, I started realizing that my character was basically in godmode.

Increase the level cap to 100, reduce skill points received per level to being equal to your Int, with tagged skills increasing 2 points for every point you put into them, skill book values reduced to +1 with the comprehension perk eliminated, and changed it so that you only get a perk every 3 levels... this helped quite a bit, godmode wasn't really achieved until 85-90, which is somewhat comparable to both vanilla FO3 and FNV as I feel like my character is pretty indestructible when he is 90% levelled up.

A radical idea I had to ensure that creatures were always comparable in level to my character, was to keep all the skill and perk changes listed above, but rather than extending the level cap to 100, I wrote a script to automatically reset my character's level to 1 as soon as he hit 50. This of course made all the level 50 perks inaccessible (but I felt they were overpowered anyway) but it did ensure that my character was always somewhat comparable to the creatures around you... and yes, every time you "reincarnate" you keep all your special values, all your skill levels, and all your perks. So after you've levelled 150+ times or so, you will have maxxed everything and gotten pretty much every available perk. But honestly, I ran out of things to do about 2/3s of the way through my second time through the levels.  I know this wouldn't be for everyone, but it was an interesting playthrough!

 

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I actually programmed a mod

I actually programmed a mod once that did just that. I even extended it so that you could literally start the game over using the same character.

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I dislike being forced to

I dislike being forced to start in the CW, since the beginning of FO3 is too long for my tastes. I'd rather start chargen in NV, then go back to FO3.

Risewild
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Gribbleshnibit8 wrote:

Gribbleshnibit8 wrote:

But then, who printed it and carried the dozens/hundreds of copies from DC to Vegas? Personally that seems a pretty flimsy reason. I thought it was neat they were in FNV, but was not exactly seeing as the same book that was written in FO3. Perhaps it was, but I just don't see that as being a high priority trade item.

On a side note, if that is what happened, would Moira be getting royalties from those book sales? If so, she should be loaded on any subsequent trip back to DC. Sure she still runs Craterside Supply because it gives her something to do, but she would certainly be the richest person in Megaton.

Well I don't think there are dozens/hundreds of copies, if I recall the player is only able to find five books in NV (including one in the LR DLC) so there doesn't seem to be that many in NV, and I also think Moira won't get any royalties because I have this feeling that she just gives the book for free to traders so they can spread it around, after all she says "I'll share these with the traders, and soon, everyone will know about the Wasteland Survival Guide." other things that makes me think she would give the book for free is that she never mention (correct me if I'm wrong, my memory isn't the best) anything about selling it but she says that she wants to help mankind with the book (which makes me believe she will give it away for free to help those who need it).

This post just made me think about the Wasteland Survival Guide we get from Moira at the end of the quest, will that be changed to a normal NV book so we can read it and increase our survival skill, or will it be a unique item like in FO3 if it is a unique maybe the name of it should be changed to Wasteland Survival Guide 1st Edition or something or even make it give a Survival Bonus if it's in the inventory (like the lucky 8 ball) or something, just so its more than just a book we read and it's gone.

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I like your idea about the

I like your idea about the first edition giving a static survival bonus, implementing

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Depending on the quality of

Depending on the quality of the finished product, a survival guide would be of HUGE value to the average wastelander. Which would make it highly valuable as a trade item.

The point is raised that Moira would most likely just give them away. While I agree with that somewhat, its still going to cost her in production, and all else aside she IS a merchant. So she wouldn't be out for a profit but she would charge a minimal amount to cover production costs. So she wouldn't be rich per se, and in my opinion wouldn't even be in Megaton anymore. Perhaps add finding the comic printing place to the Wasteland Survival Guide quest, and once you complete it she moves to the printer facility. Though this is all probably beyond the scope of TTW. 

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My thoughts for the .02 caps

My thoughts for the .02 caps their worth, is there anyway to start the game let people pick the perks they want, be it 1 or 30 of them and then let the player set the TAG skills to what they want. Then that's it no leveling up and the only way to improve your skills is by reading books or mags, ideally it would only be done by practicing the related skills kind of like in real life. But I'm not sure if any of this is possible or even a good idea, for me I don't mind not leveling up, it's more about the story so starting out with a set of skills and them pretty much staying that way is no big deal.

 

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I'm using PN Rebal to lower

I'm using PN Rebal to lower XP gain to half and practice makes perfect to stop getting skill points on level up. With it skills only increase from using them and you can set the gain to as slow or fast as you want, as well as going over 100 in each skill. For what it's worth I don't think TTW should do anything to the skill/level cap. leave the player to come up with their own solution.

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The thing that came up in the

The thing that came up in the earlier version was some kind of backdoor opportunity to level the creatures up with the character, so that the challenge of the early FNV game is still there even if you are level 40+. I don't recall exactly what it was - some kind of unused universal modifier already coded into the game I think.

Personally, going through a FO3 playthrough before getting to FNV, I am quite fine with essentially starting at level 1 (or some equivalent).  A bullet to the brains can do things like that to you. This way the scenes in Doc Mitchells house dont have to be changed at all.

If a complete character wipe doesn't suit, then at least a big level hit is in order.  Seems to solve some of the nastier problems of balance in the later game.

Any equipment you had with you could show up later either  in Primm (which would fit the lore reasonably well), or with the Great Khans in Boulder City.  They may not have been paid, but at least they got some good stuff off of you. They might have left you with a crappy old pistol.  Or rather dropped theirs to take your sniper rifle and Blackhawk. By that point in the game you might have leveled up enough to use it effectively again as well.

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so the lvl cap is 50 from NV

so the lvl cap is 50 from NV+all dlc's right?

well, it remains lvl 50 throughout 2 game lengths (fo3 and fnv)

would it make more sense to double that to give more distance in level to go as you do physically through 2 games worth of quests?

i'm not saying to lvl cap 100, but...wouldn't it be a good idea to %50 the xp? (including perk effects ofc)

im just saying cuz there comes a point where you get really overpowered relatively fast. if you were to say both games were really 1 game, being ttw itself, than you're projected to cap ur lvl halfway through the game...%50 through.. so if you cut the xp in half, technically, you are more fluently lvl'ing as the game progresses... beyond the halfway mark.

plus it gives it some more challenge.

just another insightful idea by Krux

 

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You should install practice

You should install practice makes perfect and turn off xp based levelling entirely. I'm headed to Smith Casey's Garage for the first time and just hit level 6. Makes it quite the challenge.

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Why not increase the level

Why not increase the level cap (to say 80), and then double the skill caps (200), and then dramatically increase the perk requirements? E.g. "Grunt" requirements are normally lvl 8, 45 Guns, 20 explosives; but with the new system it could be level 16, 90 Guns, and 40 Explosives.

Also, if keeping the lore of the WSG intact is so important, why not simply remove them from NV entirely and replace them with something else? It never really made much sense anyway that there were so many of them all over the Mojave, why not just rename it to something like "Boy Scout Handbook" and then reskin it?

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I'm pretty sure there's more

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than that. If you raise the level cap the whole game, every levelled list, will have to be rebalanced. It's bad enough that creatures stop levelling around lvl 20-25 as it is without making player more powerful. I'm all for more playability but I don't think relevelling both games is within the scope of TTW. That said, there's a forum here for mods that are TTW related. If anyone's got any GECK experiance I'm sure the community would love to have a mod like that. If not I may take a crack at it sometime in the future, but no promises on that.

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Proph wrote:

Proph wrote:

Also, if keeping the lore of the WSG intact is so important, why not simply remove them from NV entirely and replace them with something else? It never really made much sense anyway that there were so many of them all over the Mojave, why not just rename it to something like "Boy Scout Handbook" and then reskin it?

They could be changed to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Scout_Handbook. We know they have those books in the west because they were in the original games.

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I'm pretty sure there's more

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than that. If you raise the level cap the whole game, every levelled list, will have to be rebalanced. It's bad enough that creatures stop levelling around lvl 20-25 as it is without making player more powerful. I'm all for more playability but I don't think relevelling both games is within the scope of TTW. That said, there's a forum here for mods that are TTW related. If anyone's got any GECK experiance I'm sure the community would love to have a mod like that. If not I may take a crack at it sometime in the future, but no promises on that.

 

True, it would take a lot of work to scale everything, but the point is that the current options are really just to either keep it with a level 50 cap (way too low considering the amount of content there is) and imbalanced, or to significantly slow the rate at which players level. Increasing perk and level requirements is one way to maintain some measure of balance, but without having to sacrifice the pacing of the game. Perhaps it could work as a "recommended" .esp that comes with the mod (like the Bobblehead changes)?

They could be changed to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Scout_Handbook. We know they have those books in the west because they were in the original games.

Sounds like a viable and lore friendly solution to me. Anyone else have thoughts on it?

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I think people are maybe over-thinking this a bit. Let's break it down:   Question 1: what to do about the WSG?  I don't think it matters. It's tricky to make travel depend on finishing the quest, since one method of finishing the quest is to prevent its existence. So I suggest either a) don't do anything, and let the implicit assumption be that Moira will get someone else to help her if the LW fails to; or b) make it a requirement, and make a consequence of the "dream-crusher" solution be that there are NO survival skill books, anywhere. After all it's a jerk move, and you get a nice perk for it. Reasonable trade-off, I say.    Question 2: does the bullet to the brain knock you back to level 1 for the NV half of the game?  I think NV itself suggests yes, because the whole premise is that the courier is an experienced, skilled traveller, yet it starts you at level one. Plus, OWB lore establishes that the brain injury has some very unusual side-effects.    However, this very much comes down to player choice, and both choices are reasonable in a project like this. I think the mod should allow either choice to be selected at the beginning of the game.    Question 3: what to do about leveling and XP rates? Well, this depends entirely on the answer to question 2. If the player chooses the "full-amnesia" start-over option, nothing has to be adjusted; if the player chooses to keep their skills, there will be issues. But, as was mentioned above, those issues can be dealt with by the player making that choice, using any number of other mods that adjust leveling and skills.  I use slow-leveling mods anyway, because I think the early/mid game is more balanced, and I think leveling up should be a rare, awesome event. Others may disagree, preferring to become a demi-god faster. To each his own.    In sum: I don't think the TTW devs need to cater to one or the other group. Let people make a choice as to Question 2, and players' imaginations and mods can handle the rest. 
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I would vote for having an

I would vote for having an the option to reset your level if you get shot in the head.

So everybody can chose what they like. But I don't know how hard it is to do a level reset and what trouble it can cause.

 

Because if you reset to level one I think you should keep all the perks that were done to you body.

Like Ant Might / Sight, Cyborg etc. they would not go away with memory loss.

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Yeah as others have said,

Yeah as others have said, going to level 1 on your first trip to NV... what if you are only at level 2 because the first thing you did when you stepped out of vault 101 was head to NV???  Then it doesn't really solve the problem at all. 

These are the options that I can think of:

  1. Getting shot in the head -> back to level 1:
    . . pros: easy to implement
    . . cons: only works if you travel to NV after doing a lot of stuff in DC and gaining levels there.
     
  2. Reduce the rate at which experience is rewarded:
    . . pros: works regardless of what the player does, available as part of Project Nevada
    . . cons: level-ups are less frequent (can be boring for some); if PN is not used, could be a lot of work to create a custom system.  May also require manual rebalancing of the game (changing the min/max levels of leveled enemies, leveled loot, etc.) - especially the later parts of FO3 (must be made easier) and the early parts of FNV (must be made harder).  This also assumes that the player would play linearly through FO3 and then travel to FNV.
     
  3. Increase the level cap to 100, but keep the existing Fallout leveling system
    . . pros: works regardless of what the player does, player levels regularly, solutions are available on Nexus as a starting point (see this post)
    . . cons: would take some work to create - merge those three plugins on Nexus and then debug, for starters.  Plus, a level cap on leveled creatures would have to be increased somehow so that they still presented a challenge to a level 75 character.  Possibly new creature/enemy variants and leveled lists.  May also require manual rebalancing of the game (changing the min/max levels of leveled enemies, leveled loot, etc.)
     
  4. Use Practice Makes Perfect to change the leveling system
    . . pros: works regardless of what the player does, player levels regularly, already built and working so it's easy to implement, increases the level cap past 50 and skills caps past 100, introduces new skills, etc.
    . . cons: really changes the way leveling works in Fallout - leveling is based on the skills you use, not how you assign points (more like Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim).  Might still require manual rebalancing of the game (changing the min/max levels of leveled enemies, leveled loot, etc.) to handle high-level characters.
     
  5. Use XFO-NV to rebalance the game
    . . pros: works regardless of what the player does, player levels regularly, already built and working so it's easy to implement, increases the level cap past 50 and skills caps past 100, introduces new skills, etc.
    . . cons: really changes the way leveling works in Fallout - depending on how you set up the mod...  Might still require manual rebalancing of the game (changing the min/max levels of leveled enemies, leveled loot, etc.) to handle high-level characters.
     
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Ah - I wasn't envisioning

Ah - I wasn't envisioning traveling back and forth between the wastelands a lot, that seems kind of ridiculous because 1) it's a looooong way to go in a post-apocalyptic world with no cars, where even well-to-do merchants move around on foot with brahmin caravans, and 2) if it was easy to go back and forth, how to explain why the rest of the people in the country aren't going back and forth all the time?? Why is the east-coast Brotherhood cut off from the west-coast brotherhood?  Why don't the Outcasts just hop a train back west to be with like-minded brethren?  Why did ED-E make a long, lonely trip across the country by himself, stopping in Chicago?  Et cetera.  Talk about immersion-breaking.  I figured, just as we don't go back and forth to/from the DLC like the Pitt, Zeta, Zion Canyon, Big MT or the Sierra Madre, we wouldn't go back and forth between the wastelands except maybe once or twice.

But of course it's a personal choice as to how people would like to play the game, and I'm not sure TTW should come down on one side or the other.  If it did, half of the people looking to play this (the half wanting to play the other way) would probably leave.  Giving players would therefore be ideal.  Maybe test a few XP/level uncapper mods to make sure they work with TTW - make copatibility patches if necessary - and direct players to the appropriate Nexus pages.  The alternative, to deal with super-high-level balance issues, seems like a TON of work, probably more than it's worth.  (But then, I'm not the one doing the work, so don't take my word for it!)

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ok ok ok... so all those

ok ok ok... so all those solutions thermador posted say one way or another, it comes down to either player choice, game balance, loophole, or complicated implementation.

no doubt about it that either this should be a completely seperate mod for ttw or a built-in option on ttw itself (nothing defaulted). as for the options themselves, they would have to come in as ttw progresses in development. as it stands, a simple xp modifier would do the trick. Because I don't think the con, "can be boring" applies to barely anyone. it's a slow-paced game, that's why you're playing it. level'ing SHOULD be slow. if anything, you're fixing a vanilla issue and have a whole 2nd game for the player to go through to make up for that time...so congratulations if you give an xp modification adjuster.

---------------------

now i don't really have any input about this wasteland survival guide. when u started bringing up mandatory quests before travel, my only initial thoughts were how much easier it would be to not have the guide show up in nv Until or If that quest is complete.

same goes for purified water

my vote goes there

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Well I think Thermador post

Well I think Thermador post up there shows quite well the pros and cons, but reading it made my brain tingle with ideas on how to stop people from going to NV early enough so it wouldn't be around just a couple levels lost, maybe make the player have to repair some terminals and maybe the trains by setting repair challenges around level 50 or 75 or science challenges for the terminals, that way the player would have to have a couple of levels under the belt... but that could just make the player spend all of the skill points in the appropriated skills to level them in just a couple of levels too since they would reset the levels anyway so it didn't sound like an ideal solution (although I still think that having those challenges would make TTW even more interesting), other solution making the train tickets cost pre-war money like a big amount maybe 50 or 100 (not sure about how much though), because an amount like that would take a while to find in the wastes (later after we used the train to change wasteland for the first time maybe we could find in the new station some manual or computer terminal having the complaints of some maintenance guy because the currency exchange of the ticket terminals were always failing, or how he had to go and modify it because he got orders that the machines wouldn't accept the chinese currency anymore, and to have some code or method to be able to change them, so we could use that knowledge to make them accept caps from that point on), or another way would be having the train station closed or non functional until a certain quest or main quest step would be complete (like the BoS had the control of it but couldn't redirect the efforts and resources to fix it due to the Enclave or Super Mutants menace), or having a special quest to be able to fix the train and lines (like a fetch quest, we could be required to get some robot components to fix the maintenance robots, or some power module to make the train move again, some electronic component to be able to get tickets again from the terminals) that would require the LW to have to go around several places on the map that would be too dangerous for a low level character.

About leveling slower maybe if that was the case we could make the player gain one perk every level but lower the amount of skill points he could gain (as so it wouldn't get some powerful perks too soon) or instead of lower skill points maybe make some more powerful perks level dependent (or increase the dependency of those who have lower level dependency already) that way the player levels slower but still gets some kind of reward each time it levels (although maybe to some players their reward is getting better at skills instead of having more perks ) I am trying to think of a way of not allowing the player to be a demi-god but both FO3 and NV have nothing to prevent that (FNV even less with the challenges that give permanent damage bonus and resistances and etc plus implants on top of the normal perks) they are both games for the player to get powerful easy, even the hardcore mode isn't that much hardcore just more annoying

I don't know I took too long to type this post that I forgot other stuff I was about to say xD well thanks for reading this wall of text.

PS: Maybe to explain why other people wouldn't use the train to travel too, there could be a unique something that the LW would have with him/her like a passcard or something and have the stations be in lockdown because someone found some chinese spys trying to buy tickets there so it would be locked down as a security measure (it would be unlocked eventually but the bombs fell during the lockdown so only people with special authorization like military or governmental ones could use it), that way it would be useless to other people except the LW and his companions when they are with him/her (that could also explain why the companions didn't went home after the nine years, they couldn't use the train by themselves or something).

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I'm still of the mind that

I'm still of the mind that the player should be left to their own devices for all this. There are plenty of good mods out there that do nearly everything that's been asked for. To package one with or make one for TTW seems a bit redundant. Anyone asking for something already readily available and usually highly configurable simply can't be bothered to look. If you want something to work exactly your way, it's probably on the nexus. Project Nevada will slow XP levelling to something like 33% if you so choose. Practice Makes Perfect allows you to set your level cap up to something like 100, and not gain xp at all. You're tasked with honing your seperate skilles a set number (again, user configurable) of times before you gain a level. I believe Dandys has a mod on Nexus that allows you to reset to level 1 but still keep your perks. I see no reason any of this should be coded by a dev of TTW. That would take time away from working on TTW to make something that already exists.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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