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JaxFirehart
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Weapons

I am opening some things for general discussion, I want input from everyone who reads this on various topics listed below. The current goal is to recreate FO3 in the FNV engine while also integrating appropriate upgrades. The question is, what are the appropriate upgrades.

WEAPONS
Should FNV weapons appear in DC and DC weapons appear in the wasteland.

Things to consider:
With the weapon system overhaul in FNV, I don't think there are enough FO3-only weapons to fill every niche.
Some weapons, like the Caravan Shotgun or Cowboy Repeater just don't fit in the DC setting. Chinese Assault Rifle in Mojave?
That said, there is nothing stopping us from excluding certain weapons that don't fit.

My conclusion:
I vote for integrating MOST weapons and skipping ones that don't feel right. Which ones do and don't feel right is up for discussion as well.

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dandys
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I love the fact that there is

I love the fact that there is more choice of weapons in New Vegas, like multiple weapons that aren't necessarily better than each other just better for different situations. I think the reduce in emphasis on unique weapons helped too because in Fallout 3 once I got a unique all the regulars would become useless.

I think we need some New Vegas weapons. Bumper sword if someone can change the liscence plate and rebar club would be cool maybe for super mutants.

Things like 9-iron, chainsaw for raiders, and definitely fire axe since it makes sense. (On that note also add fire helmet and construction hat to fallout 3, not common by any means but why not)

Explosive weapons like grenade launcher rifle and maybe machinegun are pretty important to Fallout 3 since I feel Fallout 3 didn't really have any besides like missile launcher fat man and grenades/mines so I think they add a lot for explosives based characters (probably not popular but still)

C4, incendiary grenades, powder charge would probably be fine.

Machete, power fist variants, fire axe, multiplas rifle, plasma caster, all that stuff maybe as long as it doesn't take away from the feel of the game.

I agree with you about cowboy and caravan guns. I might add dynamite too, but maybe not I don't know.

The other guns are tricky. I think the Fallout NV guns have a little bit of an army game feel which I don't know fits into Fallout 3 which feels more post-nuclear. Might work though.

JaxFirehart
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Technically, all of those

Technically, all of those would be available anywhere in america. I can go down to any sporting goods store and buy weapons very similar to either the caravan shotgun or the cowboy repeater.

That said, we also have to worry about the way the game feels, which I think is where you were going. Dynamite and powder charge, on the other hand, would not be used widely by civillians or the army. I always assumed that the dynamite and powder charge were made by the NCR. With no NCR type civilization, I doubt simple raiders would have the knowledge and I doubt Rivet City/Megaton would have the need. C4 I agree would probably fit fairly well, all forms of grenades and mines should actually be more common in DC since there was a lot more fighting in DC during the war.

You said about FNV having more of an army feel, I agree, but if anything the military-type weapons would fit better in DC, once again, because of the extent of the fighting.

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I think a cross-wasteland

I think a cross-wasteland weapon feature shouldn't be part of the vanilla mod.  The weapons in FNV are too dramatically different and have a completely different feel to them compared to the FO3 ones, particularly when it comes to the rarity of automatic-fire weapons.  I'll admit it will be a much-desired feature, but not by everyone.  It would be simple enough to make it an add-on mod (in fact I already had back in the RFCW days), leaving the "vanilla" CW and NV feeling in tact if people so desire.

The one exception I would like to suggest to this is in the case of 10mm weapons in the CW.  I've talked this one to death already, but I'll reiterate here: 10mm weapons (or at least the Pistol and SMG) are now FAR too powerful to be around during the earliest parts of the game.  There aren't any good candidates to replace them from the existing FO3 weapons - certainly not in Vault 101 - but the 9mm pistol and SMG would slot in nicely as replacements for the now-buffed 10mm versions.  It's one of the rare cases where using an NV weapon would PRESERVE the "FO3 feel", due to the new damage balance.  If we went this route, I'm not sure the Chinese Pistol shouldn't be switched to 9mm as well, to better preserve ammo balance and such.  10mm could still be distributed in the CW, just at a higher level.

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My only argument there is

My only argument there is that there aren't enough weapons in FO3 to even fill all 5 skill tiers of any skill. I agree with your point about the 10mm, I hate to do it, but the v101 security officers need their armor weakened and their weapons downgraded to 9mm.

yukichigai
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the 5-tier system can KIND OF

the 5-tier system can KIND OF work in the CW, if you sort of bastard merge it wiht the 3-tier system from FO3.  I managed to pull it off I think.  I'll get my modifications working and show you soon.

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Base version should not

Base version should not include NV weapons, Merged version should include the ones that feel appropriate, which should be most of them.

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I know I've necroposted a

I know I've necroposted a bunch tonight apologies. But I had a few thoughts, First on the Chinese pistol would be to make it have the same damage of the 10mm pistol since it has a longer barrel and simpler design going for a little better accuracy and durability, At the expense of not being as easily modified and a smaller ammo capacity would actually make sense.

Some of the Honest Hearts weapons like the .45 SMG and Pistol I think would fit rather well if they were stocked in the National guard depot and maybe the Wheaton Armory. Both places being rather difficult to get to early on and if ammo and repair parts or more guns were higher level it would balance them and should also have a larger stock of weapons for places that have been guarded by radiation and or robots for a few hundred years.

I like Yukichigai's idea for the use of the 9mm SMGs and pistols and it seems very sound, especially the 9mm SMG being it is a more simple and durable weapon rather fitting for the raiders' ramshackle appearance.

I'm betting now that I'll be using the merged version just for the sheer amount of weapons.

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the DC enclave really needs

the DC enclave really needs the boost in firepower, they only have weapons that the whole Capital wasteland has? its understandable that there available in NV as the enclave was kicked out but wouldn't they manage to take some of that gear with them?

The brotherhood could also contain the Service rifle and some other military weapons, they did take over the Pentagon so I'm sure they would of found a stock pile or two of those weapons from the national guard sites.

the merchant caravans could use rarely use the cowboy repeater, trail carbine and revolver as there traiding would sometimes allow them to purchase such items. NV merchants are the same as they just as well could purchase some DC weapons on there travels

Raiders could use alot of the NV close combat gear to make it so your not just fighting the same bunch of raiders all the time. Also there raiding of merchants could give them the rare chance of attaining such weapons from DC of NV

i think what I'm trying to get across is yes i vote that it should be done, already the gameplay is going over to NV and the feel of fallout 3 is important but then again if it wasn't changed it would mean that someone coming from NV would have an easy time killing in the CW

R Blaik

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Hi - new poster here, I love

Hi - new poster here, I love what you guys are doing.  One of the reasons I love the idea of redoing FO3 with the NV engine is specifically weapons - FO3 weapon balance sucked big-time (among guns, anyway).  In NV, every weapon at least has a place, and has characteristics that make it different from other weapons.  FO3 had semi-auto pistols, slow-shooting bolt/lever-action rifles, and full-auto machine guns (in one- and two-handed varieties.  Period.  And shotguns that are mostly useless because you get a combat shotgun very quickly.  There are a ton of great ideas on this thread and on the .32 cal thread... here are my 2 cents about bringing it all together.

 

1) The .32 revolver and Chinese pistol were HORRIBLE.  Why did they even exist??  I say, replace the .32 revolver with the .357 revolver, and change the Chinese pistol to the 9mm pistol.  (Why are there so may Chinese pistols around DC?  It wasn't a big battlefront in the war, there were just a few spies.  Whereas, 9mm semiauto handguns are fairly ubiquitous around the east coast.)

 

2) Because you don't want any ammo to only be used by one gun, change the CW hunting rifle to the NV cowboy repeater.  If the name is too NV-ish, just change the name to "Repeating Rifle" or something.  But I feel like the repeater plays a similar role in NV that the hunting rifle did in FO3, so it should be a simple, easy change.

 

3) Assault rifles & Chinese assault rifles were HORRIBLE.  First, again, why are there so many Chinese weapons around DC??  Doesn't make sense.  Second, there was NO difference between them, other than that Chinese ones hit harder. If the regular assault rifle had a lower spread or something, at least there would be a reason for them to still exist.  But no, they were only valuable for repairing my chinese assault rifle.  So, again, replace these entirely.  Replace assault rifles with NV service rifles, and replace chinese assault rifles with NV assault carbines.  This accomplishes two things: first, it makes a nice progression in Super Mutants from low-level one with slow repeaters, to mid-level ones (Brutes) with semi-auto service rifles, to high-level ones (Masters) with full-auto assault carbines & miniguns; second, it provides a use for all the 5mm ammo for players who want to carry guns smaller than the minigun.

 

4) Vary up the shotguns... something like the combat shotgun (hits hard, loads cartridges quickly, holds lots of ammo per cartidge) should be VERY rare and high-level, like the hunting shotgun in NV.

 

5) So now we're left with the problem that the 9mm pistol is the only one that uses 9mm ammo; and the service rifle is the only one that uses 5.56 ammo.  The former could be cured by switching 10mm SMGs to 9mmSMGs in the CW (10mm would still have two weapons using it) and the latter could be cured by dropping a few (a very, very few) 5.56 pistols around in hidden places.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts!  Can't wait to test this out when I have my FO games back up and running!  (I'm repartitioning my drives, so will have to reinstall the games.)

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As far as there being chinese

As far as there being chinese weapons everywhere, LOB Enterprises was working with them to make experimental guns, and there were holdouts like Mama Dolces too.

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subtledoctor wrote:1) The .32

subtledoctor wrote:

1) The .32 revolver and Chinese pistol were HORRIBLE.  Why did they even exist??  I say, replace the .32 revolver with the .357 revolver, and change the Chinese pistol to the 9mm pistol.  (Why are there so may Chinese pistols around DC?  It wasn't a big battlefront in the war, there were just a few spies.  Whereas, 9mm semiauto handguns are fairly ubiquitous around the east coast.)

The .32 has been turned into a .22 revolver. Though most .22 revolvers I've been able to find in research are 7 or 9 shot, not 5. So really a new model would be needed for that imo.

subtledoctor wrote:

3) Assault rifles & Chinese assault rifles were HORRIBLE.  First, again, why are there so many Chinese weapons around DC??  Doesn't make sense.  Second, there was NO difference between them, other than that Chinese ones hit harder. If the regular assault rifle had a lower spread or something, at least there would be a reason for them to still exist.  But no, they were only valuable for repairing my chinese assault rifle.  So, again, replace these entirely.  Replace assault rifles with NV service rifles, and replace chinese assault rifles with NV assault carbines.  This accomplishes two things: first, it makes a nice progression in Super Mutants from low-level one with slow repeaters, to mid-level ones (Brutes) with semi-auto service rifles, to high-level ones (Masters) with full-auto assault carbines & miniguns; second, it provides a use for all the 5mm ammo for players who want to carry guns smaller than the minigun.

The assault rifles served a fine role. Sure, they weren't very accurate, but the hunting rifle was the accurate gun. ARs were for high fire and damage. As for moving the service rifle over, that makes no sense whatsoever. I was under the impression in the game that the NCR was in some way actually producing the service rifles. Hence the high number found in the game. I could be wrong, but that was the feeling I got about it. It could work in Fo3 just fine, I just don't think it should be there.

subtledoctor wrote:

4) Vary up the shotguns... something like the combat shotgun (hits hard, loads cartridges quickly, holds lots of ammo per cartidge) should be VERY rare and high-level, like the hunting shotgun in NV.

I do agree with shotguns, the choices in FO3 were very limited. Honestly I think the caravan shotgun should be in Fo3, as should the riot shotgun, the double shotgun, well, all of them really.

subtledoctor wrote:

5) So now we're left with the problem that the 9mm pistol is the only one that uses 9mm ammo; and the service rifle is the only one that uses 5.56 ammo.  The former could be cured by switching 10mm SMGs to 9mmSMGs in the CW (10mm would still have two weapons using it) and the latter could be cured by dropping a few (a very, very few) 5.56 pistols around in hidden places.

Now you're just changing whole weapon tiers. 

 

 

My thoughts are, most weapons should be carried over, just much more rare, in the case of say, cowboy repeater, caravan shotgun, etc. Riot shotguns make sense, because there was a lot of rioting etc. Service Rifle, maybe, as well as the other service weapons, most rifles should be in FO3. Again, as was pointed out, most gun types are available everywhere, it's just a matter of how common. If the cowboy repeater was a "Unique" single instance in FO3, that'd be fine with me.

As far as the Chinese pistol should, if anything, be chambered in .45 ACP. Check this article for that. That change would of course require a rebalance of the weapon, giving it more power but moving it way up on the tier lists. It would however give 1) another .45 ACP weapon, and 2) a more fitting .45 ACP weapon in the CW.

I honestly can't think of any gun that would not fit into the CW in some way. Even guns like the Anit-materiel rifle would fit, if made exclusive to military armories, and very very rare (as in maybe 2 in the whole CW).

I had other ideas, but have forgotten them now. If I remember I'll add them as well.

subtledoctor
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"The assault rifles served a

"The assault rifles served a fine role. Sure, they weren't very accurate, but the hunting rifle was the accurate gun. ARs were for high fire and damage."

To be clear: I agree 100% that the assault rifles had a clear place relative to other guns ... but they did not have a clear place relative to each other. There was absolutely no difference between them, except the Chinese variant was better. The US AR had zero utility if you had a Chinese AR in your inventory (and you could get a Chinese AR very early on).

I say, create some distinction there. Give them different firing characteristics, different ammo, something. Even better, I say, just replace the Chinese AR with another gun, like the assault carbine. (I reiterate my doubt that here would be so many Chinese weapons littering DC... that gun is the standard armament of all sorts of soldiers, security guards, and super mutants!  Better for it to be a special, rare thing... in fact maybe make the Chinese AR (Xuanlong) into the unique variant of the US AR... recall that the US AR has no unique model)

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Making the Chinese rifle more

Making the Chinese rifle more rare would be acceptable. Lucas, the Chinese remnants, and any place where Chinese corpses are found. Other than that, relatively rare across the wasteland.

Mostly I say keep the weapons that were in Fo3 there. It wouldn't feel right without access to the Chinese AR in some form.

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As far as I'm concerned,

As far as I'm concerned, weapons from DC should be in Vegas, and weapons from Vegas should be in DC... after some stat fixes and perk editing. About the Chinese AR vs. the AR, there should be more of a distinction... the Chinese AR is supposed to be the AK-47, it should be more powerful, but have horrible accuracy, really, the Russians built it to fit STG-44 clips, and have terrible accuracy so that they didn't have to train their troops to shoot... the gun would just pump out bullets randomly at a given direction and eventually a bullet will hit the target. The Assault Rifle is supposed to be the FN FAL, so give it more accuracy, but make it Semi-Auto. The AR would be heavier, and have a longer range than the CAR. The distinction then would be that the AR would be a long range weapon, and the CAR would be a short range weapon.

-Conso

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Aconagent1, not to sound like

Aconagent1, not to sound like a dick or anything, and I apologize if I do, but it seems to be that you got your info from Call of Duty or something.

 

AKs were reliable weapons, but their recoil was a bit harsh. Still, they were fairly manageable in full-auto, with decent training. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuc5qxSYjUs granted, they used the vertical grip, but still. Recoil is moderate.

 

FN FALs are capable of full-auto fire, and the Fallout one isn't the FAL, it's the H&K G3, which is also capable of full-auto fire.

 

Anyways, the Chinese Assault Rifles shouldn't be in the Mojave at all, due to story reasons.

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@ElvenScoundrel

@ElvenScoundrel

The FN FAL is mainly used as a Semi-Auto weapon because Western training is normally about aimed shots, and you would have to buy it Semi-Automatic only in the states. Also in Fallout 2, they had the FN FAL and it looks pretty much the same granted the low-res. The AK might have been a reliable weapon to a trained person, but it was made for the WW2 Soviet conscript army. The high-recoil makes it inaccurate to an untrained person, such as a post-apocolyptic wastelander.

Also, I hate Call of Duty, except for Nazi Zombies on WaW. XD

-Conso

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But both the guns use 5.56mm

But both the guns use 5.56mm instead of 7.62mm ; so they should perform almost the same. I don't see what the problem is with having two guns perform the same role. It adds to flavour and variety, and the more different models of guns there are floating around that aren't tailored to fit a specific FPS template, the more realistic. In real life there's more than one type of 9mm pistol, and more than one type of .357 revolver, etc. In my load-order I've merged in about 20 new AK and AR varients alone.

 

Besides which, what you're saying about the AK-47 is just plain wrong, even by today's standards it's a perfectly serviceable assault rifle. (and the FAL kicked butt in vietnam when the SASR converted it to sawed-off full auto)

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@Dynastia
@Dynastia Allright, I give up XD

-Conso

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@Dynastia we all agree that

@Dynastia I agree that having two guns perform the same role is fine; e.g. in NV the Assault Rifle and LMG play the same role, even while they have different characteristics and ammo. But in FO3, the AR and CAR have the *same* characteristics and the *same* ammo, and play the same role. They're practically the same gun.  The only alternative is a 10mm SMG. That is not what I call flavor and variety. 

The general point is, FO3 did not have the flavor and variety that FNV has... and this project is a chance to fix that!  FO3 cheap early revolver?  Obsolete before I even begin the game.  FNV cheap early revolver?  I'm using a .357 with JSP rounds as my default daytime weapon, at level 24!  Smallish automatic weapons?  FO3 has the AR and CAR (identical utility), and a 10mm SMG.  FNV has the LMG, Assault Carbine, and Bozar, plus 4 SMGs, plus a few fast semiauto rifles for variety. And almost all of them are useful for a large portion of the game. 

All we're suggesting is, why not bring some of the variety and utility of FNV's guns back to FO3?  IMHO good gameplay trumps realism and staying true to the original. (If we want to stay true to the original, we can always just play the original... this is, after all, a mod.)

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Dynastia wrote:I don't see

Dynastia wrote:

I don't see what the problem is with having two guns perform the same role. It adds to flavour and variety, and the more different models of guns there are floating around that aren't tailored to fit a specific FPS template, the more realistic. In real life there's more than one type of 9mm pistol, and more than one type of .357 revolver, etc.

Totally agree.  The more options there are, the better.  It leads to more varied, interesting gameplay.

It is a shame that we lost the .32 weapons - maybe at some point the can be restored along with more (new?) weapons that use the .32 ammo.

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I never wanted to get rid of

I never wanted to get rid of the .32 weapons, myself. I just didn't want there to only be 1 .32 weapon. Restoring it would be easy, but creating completely new weapons would be less so.

The options which were presented to me were: create a new .32 hunting rifle, which I vetoed because it just didn't feel right. I'm all for variety, but the guns shouldn't look identical. If we retexture and rename it, then its a new weapon and TTW isn't about making new weapons. I'm fairly stubborn about this particular point.

Another option was to change the ammo types of some other weapons. I was hesitant to do this because I refuse to makes major changes to FNV weapons, and I am apprehensive about major changes to FO3. I guess I am still open to this one, but it would take some pretty damn good reasoning.

Please keep any further discussion about .32 to the appropriate forum

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Well, I am very impressed

Well, I am very impressed with the progress made on TTW since I last played with Requiem.  I got back into playing Fallout 3 and New Vegas for nostalgiac reasons and thought I would do my part to help make TTW more attractive and fun.  I have taken a mod, Weapon Mods Recipes and started doing some work on it to not only decrease load order, specifically with the goal of having it work well with TTW.  I will be removing and changing some recipes (maybe) and would like to ensure that WMR works VERY well with a base install of TTW.  As it stands at this moment, are all weapons going through both wastelands?  Is there a comprehensive list of weapon changes, removals, add-ins and such?  I could go the route of ensuring all weapons that would have sensical modifications have them, but if they are never used, it could shorten the amount of time spent on it.  Again, I could create all the content then start cutting out things as you guys do.  What do we think?

 

EDIT.  OK.  So I found that my efforts have already been done.  I wish Nexus was easier to seach.  Anyway, I am still interested in this.  I may work with the mod authors of one fo the mods I found to see if I'll work on TTW integration and any miscelanious ideas they may have.

With a hobby of slaughtering the innocent, one has to question what sort of person you are.

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I personally would like to

I personally would like to see weapon integration, at least as an optional feature. Even for DLCs, for example this mod and this other mod provide a good working base for dlc weapons of new vegas.

In addition to this I think it would be good to integrate the weapons of the other DLCs, the fallout 3 ones, so they are available in both wastelands. Overall this increases the diversity of the enemies encountered.

Also how possible would it be for the gun runner arsenal weapons to substitute the originals? I.e. just delete the original duplicate weapon and take out the (GRA) part of the name of the new ones? Whenever I play I think it just adds a level of granularity that I don't enjoy. I don't know how popular this opinion is.

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Spanta, try this mod http:/

Spanta, try this mod http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/44450/?  It does to GRA almost exactly what you asked for.