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dandys
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Weapon Schematics

The recipe system replaced weapon schematics, but when we reintroduce Fallout 3, it'll still be there.

Workbenches must be the NV kind.

What should we do about schematics though?

We could just make them into recipes, with different recipes for different levels of schematic, but that'd be bad for two reasons in my opinion: one is that the recipe system doesn't allow for the essential repair-skill-based-conditions of Fallout 3 (and I think 100% all the time no matter what would be overpowered). Also, you have to consider that NV made some crafted weapons, like shishkebab, much more valuable and therefore overpowered if you could just make them easily.


Also remember that due to the New Vegas engine's new ammo features the Rock-It launcher is completely broken. It will crash if you try to use it. We have to either repurpose it to use a set ammunition (would be weird) or scrap it (would be sad), or something else.

I definitely want to see Dart Guns Railway Rifles Shishkebabs Deathclaw Gauntlets homemade grenades and even the Rock-It Launcher in some form in Fallout 3 again. However, maybe the crafting of those weapons is better left to NPCs, and they would be fine as only lootable/purchasable?

I vote for keeping Nuka Grenade and Bottlecap mine recipes of course, just worried about the real weapons.

I mean you can obviously tell that shishkebab is made from motorcycle tank and lawnmower blade, but maybe that can just add to realism and wouldn't just raise the question "why can't I craft that" as much as you might think. Besides, it has that nozzle thing, and the other weapons all have stuff like those, parts that aren't in the recipe that turn up on the weapon, which might make it more realistic to just have them NPC-bought and scavenged.

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Edited by: dandys on 09/12/2012 - 17:42
JaxFirehart
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I vote for just converting

I vote for just converting schematics to recpies. My solution to multiple schematics would be to require a really high repair skill with only 1 schematic, a moderate repair with 2 schematics and a medium-low skill with 3 schematics (90,60,40 as a brief example). Even if we made the crafted weapons spawn at low condition, then that would feel strange alongside FNV recipes that popped out full strength weapons. This is definitely something to work on over time.

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Agree with Jax on this one

Agree with Jax on this one not a bad plan but, I also think it is someting we should think about before just jumping on the first Idea that works. I would like to wait on this one, get my hands on the new version for testing and, see what we all can come up with. 

could you explain why the rocket launcher can't be fixed? seems to me that it would just need it's own ammo list but, I'm sure theres more to it then that. 

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In FNV ammo lists can only

In FNV ammo lists can only include ammo objects. Since teddy bears and tin cans etc... are not ammo, the game crashes if you try to use them in an ammo list. The solution would be to create custom ammo types and projectiles that look just like random junk and then have some sort of scripted menu so that when you equip the rock-it launcher, you can load it with non-ammo junk which is then converted to ammo junk. If we use NVSE, I can also make it so that when you press 'R' the same menu pops up. All that being said, it would be a hell of a prototype. I think once we got some of the bigger stuff out of the way, I might look into doing just that.

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I looked into making a

I looked into making a working Rock-It Launcher for the FO3 Weapons Restoration.  Even with NVSE it would take a massive, massive amount of work to get just that one weapon working like it used to.  I might be able to make some sort of super-hacky non-NVSE method, but it would never be fuly functional.  You'd never be able to fire something and then pick it back up if it bounced, for example.

Also, the way I handled Crafting in the Capital Wasteland was to turn the Workbenches into dual-use Crafting Benches, offering options to use either Workbench or Reloading Bench functions when used.  This was complimented by replacing all static campfires in the CW with the interactive Campfire crafting stations.  That system seemed to work well, and was even balanced right: there's not a lot of campfire crafting to be done in the CW.

Weapon Schematics should DEFINITELY be converted to the Recipe System, if only because it will provide an easy way to see whether or not you can craft one.  The differing item health based on how many schematics you have can be reproduced with some trickery (which I've already done).  I'm very hesitant to include any sort of skill check on the schematics though, the reason being that it would have been possible to do so in FO3 (easy, actually) and the developers didn't.

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yukichigai wrote:

yukichigai wrote:

I looked into making a working Rock-It Launcher for the FO3 Weapons Restoration.  Even with NVSE it would take a massive, massive amount of work to get just that one weapon working like it used to.  I might be able to make some sort of super-hacky non-NVSE method, but it would never be fuly functional.  You'd never be able to fire something and then pick it back up if it bounced, for example.

That's really too bad

yukichigai wrote:

Also, the way I handled Crafting in the Capital Wasteland was to turn the Workbenches into dual-use Crafting Benches, offering options to use either Workbench or Reloading Bench functions when used. 

In the last version of TTW someone (I'm afraid I don't know who) scattered reloading benches throughout DC, it was very well done and doesn't require creating a new activator.

yukichigai wrote:

This was complimented by replacing all static campfires in the CW with the interactive Campfire crafting stations.  That system seemed to work well, and was even balanced right: there's not a lot of campfire crafting to be done in the CW.

I liked the campfires being converted, but I wish there was more for the player to craft in DC. That's a huge gap that would be nice to fill at some point, though not for the base.

yukichigai wrote:

The differing item health based on how many schematics you have can be reproduced with some trickery (which I've already done).  I'm very hesitant to include any sort of skill check on the schematics though, the reason being that it would have been possible to do so in FO3 (easy, actually) and the developers didn't.

The reason they didn't do skill checks is because they already chose to do health bonuses. In FNV you can craft a nuka-grenade without a schematic, but you need high skill. That is what I'm going for with TTW. As for jury rigging in the health bonuses, I know it can be done, but in FNV when you craft degradable items, they appear at full strength. It would look strange to craft one thing at full strength no matter what, and another thing at partial strength.

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About the Rock-It launcher:

About the Rock-It launcher:

Fook NV had a nice idea, turing it into a grenade shooting luncher.

It was possible to shoot  all the hand-grenades with it.

Maybe this is possible for the TTW version too ?

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

dandys
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Well another idea I had for

Well another idea I had for the rock-it would be to make an ammo for it that you craft out of junk, called like rock-it bits or something. Or instead of crafting it, a script on the weapon could make them automatically out of junk when you equip it/ fire it. We'd then change the projectile to be a stream of little pellets or something.

I don't know maybe it'd fit in with the whole idea of using junk as well as the idea of having a wood chipper grind things up and shoot them out the nozzle. The nozzle is really small anyway so the little pieces would work. Maybe? It's a big change though

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I would agree with yukichigai

I would agree with yukichigai, I wouldn't want to see skill checks for using the schematics, I'd rather see either the condition being deteriorated as in FO3 or even just requiring larger quantities of the components to make the weapon as in the last version of TTW.

I like the idea of crafting ammo for the rock-it launcher, its not quite the same as launching the junk itself, but it keeps the spirit of it alive IMO.

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dandys wrote:

dandys wrote:

Well another idea I had for the rock-it would be to make an ammo for it that you craft out of junk, called like rock-it bits or something. Or instead of crafting it, a script on the weapon could make them automatically out of junk when you equip it/ fire it. We'd then change the projectile to be a stream of little pellets or something.

I don't know maybe it'd fit in with the whole idea of using junk as well as the idea of having a wood chipper grind things up and shoot them out the nozzle. The nozzle is really small anyway so the little pieces would work. Maybe? It's a big change though

This is a cool idea for dealing with the Rock-It Launcher.  Have a script where it removes random junk from your inventory when you reload the weapon.  So when you reload, the script checks for the prescence of a bunch of items in your inventory, using a bunch of repeated stuff like (pseudocode):

IF inventory HAS "coffee mug"

    remove 1 "coffee mug" from inventory
    reload weapon with 8 rock-it bits

ELSEIF inventory HAS "8-ball"

   remove 1 "8-ball" from inventory
   reload weapon with 6 rock-it bits

ELSEIF inventory HAS "baseball"

   remove 1 "baseball" from inventory
   reload weapon with 3 rock-it bits

etc. etc.

It's not perfect certainly, and is more like a wood chipper, but it would accomplish the same sort of thing, in general principle.

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Schematics should definitely

Schematics should definitely be converted into recipes. In the base version, there should be no skill checks, as not to depart from Fallout 3, while in the merged version (or whatever we are calling it), there should be skill checks, to better balance and integrate the content, and match it up with the rest of the NV stuff.

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For the rock-it-launcher

For the rock-it-launcher wouldn't it be a fair trade off to have ammo-like objects converted into ammo, things like baseballs or tableware into ammo types with different effects. So you could load up some baseballs and do some serious damage to things without armor or you could toss some forks in and do armor piercing damage.

Something along those lines, though I don't know if you can make a gun use more of one ammo type over another as sort of a burst mode. Which would add a lot more credibility to shooting dinnerware. Or there could just be a seperate set of recipies, like 2 forks, 2 butter knive + ductape = a shot.

At any rate, I'm for a loss in sillyness of being able to shoot teddy bears and what not at people with decapitating speed if it means the gun can be used. It would also give a purpose to baseballs, forks, knives, etc. Which otherwise just just of sit arround doing nothing otherwise. If only there were a disc launcher model, then even plates would have a point.

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Regarding the Rock It

Regarding the Rock It Launcher, I've seen a New Vegas version floating around on a few lesser known modding forums.

I haven't tried it myself, but it might be something to look in to.

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The previous team lead,

The previous team lead, Kurotisune, recently contacted me regarding the rock-it launcher, claiming he knows how to fix it. I haven't been able to try it yet, but his track record is pretty good. There is a good chance the rock-it launcher may come back!

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This works, too. 

nevermind

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I was walking through Walmart

I was walking through Walmart last week and had an idea for how to handle the schematics from fo3.

This was just wild speculation mind you.

Ok, so finding the schematic gives you a (hidden) perk. Perk has 3 ranks. Perk adds the recipie to the available ones, with no required skill. Or something like that, I don't know, but that's how my mind though 'how would I get to the next bit'.

The next bit:

Since you craft items at 100% (I think?) let's make the three ranks three different ranks of weapon.

Example:

Dart Gun Rank 1: Has a higher spread, lower vats acc, and longer reload time.
Dart Gun rank 2: The normal dart gun
Dart Gun Rank 3: Slightly lower spread, (if the range is shorter than normal weapons) slightly longer range
Each can be used to repair the other.

For grenades and mines we already have a good mechanic in place (multiples for more schematics).

This was just a thought I had and is probably not very good. But I thought I'd mention it.

I came here to lurk and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum.

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It seems that the misc. stat

It seems that the misc. stat "weapons created' was carried over to Fallout: New Vegas, although there isn't a way to increase it. Perhaps we can come up with an alternative crafting system that increments that misc. stat as well?

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I think the weapons should be handled the FNV way for crafting. Full health, and I like the idea of skill required being related to number of schematics. That makes sense, as the more information you have on it, the easier it is to create it.

If it's possible to get the Rock-it Launcher working, that'd be great. I never made them much, but having it working would be much better than an alternate version. That being said, if the alternate version is the only viable option, I like the idea of weapon like objects such as baseballs and pool balls being used as ammo. Auto-converting items would be near malicious, because you don't know if someone collected that one coffee mug to complete their set, and converting it with no input would be wrong.

Making ammo from junk at a crafting bench would be an acceptable solution, converting junk into ammo types. Maybe different junk makes different ammo types, such as metal bits being equivalent to either AP or HP (big difference between those two, I know). Ceramic items being a different ammo type, etc. Then you could turn the gun into basically a junk powered, shoulder mounted minigun. Large capacity, high rate of fire, low-ish damage.

Copper Hamster wrote:

Since you craft items at 100% (I think?) let's make the three ranks three different ranks of weapon.

The idea of making different levels of weapons like that goes against the design that Jax is going for in TTW. He wants as minimal new forms as possible, to maintain full compatibility.

 

dandys wrote:

It seems that the misc. stat "weapons created' was carried over to Fallout: New Vegas, although there isn't a way to increase it. Perhaps we can come up with an alternative crafting system that increments that misc. stat as well?

That could work. I can think of two ways to make it, though one of them requires modifying the crafting script, which is obviously out. The other would involve a quest that monitors menu modes, keeps track of the number of the crafted weapons in inventory when starting crafting, and then checks after to see if it changed. If so, increment the stat by 1. It'd be extremely light, since it would only need to check once actually in the menu mode for crafting.

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How about instead of the

How about instead of the recipe returning a weapon, it returns a miscellanious item (called "Dart Gun" or whatever). As soon as it's added to player inventory it runs a script to check your repair skill, then adds a Dart Gun to your inventory at a suitable condition and deletes itself.

Might be a bit clumsy, but it should get the job done.

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That is actually how it was

That is actually how it was originally done by TTW. We chose not to do it that way because everything else you craft in NV is fully repaired no matter your skill. We figured it would be out of place.

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I don't usually have an

I don't usually have an opinion on items and weapons because I am not good at those things I am better at gameplay and features and stuff, but why not having 1 schematic build a weapon that degrades faster (or maybe have less HP total since that would achieve pretty much the same result I would imagine), having 2 schematics makes it degrade slower than only 1 (or have more HP total) and 3 schematics have it degrade normally (or have the full weapon HP), and for throwing then have it give more of it like it was already discussed. That way they could all be crafted full HP but still have drawbacks in the weapon durability.

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Thats actually a pretty good

Thats actually a pretty good solution. The main idea I have had was to allow you to craft mods for the weapons if you have more schematics. Like 1 schematic gets you the shishkebab and 2 schematics gets you the balanced handle mod (or something)

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Well mods for the weapons

Well mods for the weapons sounds quite good too, but that means that you guys would have to make weapon-mods for fallout 3 unique craftable weapons like the Dart gun, Rock-It launcher and Railway rifle (I think those are the only FO3 exclusive craft weapons) unless of course those weapons would be cut off TTW or something .

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Yeah, I like your idea, and I

Yeah, I like your idea, and I like my idea. I'm not to the point to decide yet, so if you or anyone else can poke holes in either idea, I'd welcome the input.

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I have an idea for the Rock

I have an idea for the Rock-It-Launcher, if that hasn't been done already.

Does it really make sense that a bazooka could just shoot random stuff you find on the ground? My idea is that you add recipes to the reloading bench where you take junk, and stuff it full of lead (Making ammunition out of it), have the ammo use the same mesh as the junk, and add all of the different junk ammunitions as variations of the same thing so that the launcher can use them all.

So for example, take a Teddy Bear, add 200 lead, and it turns into Teddy Ammo, which looks the same, but the Rock-It-Launcher can use it. Then take a Tin Can, add 200 lead, and it is now a Can of Whoop@$&, but considered it a variation of the Teddy Ammo like 5mm surplus is to 5mm. This is good because the different junk can then have different weights and damages, but still all be used.

If this sounds good, I could probably whip it up in like 5 minutes, if you want me to.

-Conso

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If they can get it working

If they can get it working the way it worked in FO3 they really should do that, and let seperate mods make improvements to it.

 

Personally I'd like to see it function like a grapeshot cannon and fire cannisters full of cutlery, lead and scrap metal. But that really belongs in another mod.