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dandys
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Shotgun Shell

What should shotgun shells be replaced with?

What gauge should Combat Shogun use?

Older merge mods used 20, I guess that's all right, but any ideas?

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JaxFirehart
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The combat shotgun makes

The combat shotgun makes sense as a 12ga, I always fought with Kuroitsune about that. He made it 20ga, but the military would never use a small gauge shell like the 20ga (could be wrong, someone tell me if I am). My solution for differentiating between the Comabt and Riot shotguns was to make the Riot Shotgun put out more DPS, but the Combat shotgun does the most damage per pellet and has slightly better range. It had its flaws, the combat shotgun was rediculously accurate with the right perks, and I ended up still using the riot shotgun more often.

But I digress, I would make all shells 12ga for now, later on I would like to place more weapons and variety in the world, in which case the gauge of the shells would change based on context.

yukichigai
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I will say that the 12ga ammo

I will say that the 12ga ammo box shape is the same as the old "Shotgun Shell" shape, so there's that.

The only reason I'd lean towards using 20ga as the standard is because of the aforementioned similarity between the Riot Shotgun and Combat Shotgun.  This does mean we'd need to make a special "20 gauge Sawed-Off" to compliment it, but FO3 has a slightly different Sawed-off shape and dramatically different skin than what is used in FNV; we should preserve that if we can.  Using 20ga would also give players more incentive to use the Combat Shotgun I think, since ammo for it would be more plentiful, and it would serve a dramatically different "role" in the weapon lineup (i.e. "rapid fire 20ga shotgun") rather than a slightly different one (i.e. "oh look, yet another rapid-fire 12ga shotgun")

I'm not particularly committed either way, I just think that using 20ga as the standard would be a nice bonus.  Oh, and in NV 12 gauge ammo isn't available to much later in the game, whereas in the CW sawed-off shotguns and Combat Shotguns are available from the start of the game.

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If it's 20 gauge you could
If it's 20 gauge you could make it really fast (shots per second) to make up for the weaker damage. If it's 12 gauge you could definitely alter the weapon stats a lot so the two 12 gauge rapid for shotguns behave very differently, even if they're the same gauge.
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I'm not sure how the item id

I'm not sure how the item id's line up, but if the FO3 shotgun shells (and shotguns) are all different from the types of shells in FNV, you could always take the middle road, and call the FO3 weapons 16 gauge. It's just a thought though. Otoh having everything be different means your 16 gauge stuff is ammo scarce in FNV if you drag it over there (and the other way as well). 20 gauge makes sense if you don't want a third gauge, and 'classically' the lighter gauges have been more popular in the northeast.

Military and Police have been known to use 12, 16, and 20 gauge shotguns for various purposes Jax, I own a 16 gauge 'trench gun' from WW1. A 20" barreled pump shotgun with a bayonet (I don't have the bayonet), go figure. My father told me that some of the shipboard security Marines were issued 20 gauge pump actions on board the USS New Jersey during Korea, the idea being that the less powerful rounds are less likely to penetrate through interior walls (water tight bulkheads would stop any small arms, but not everything was bulkheads) if they have to be fired inside the ship. Also short 20s are much easier to rapidly fire, a short 12 gauge has a lot more 'rise' when firing buckshot.

I will say that today I don't think any police department issues 20 gauge's that I'm aware of, but police have gotten a bit big caliber happy in the last few decades (not that it's unwarranted). Though I recall seeing a website selling (to verified law enforcement only) breaching rounds and rubber 'less lethal' rounds in 20 gauge, so they certainly could still be out there.

As an aside, to assuage my gun-nuttiness, when cut down below roughly 24", shotguns actually get a little  less powerful, due to lack of barrel to carry the charge and push the pellets. Spread doesn't increase noticably either. The reason they get cut down that much is concealablity and close confines manuverability; I had a State Trooper for a neighbor a few years ago. His in car shotgun was a 24" barrel with a full stock. When he was deployed in semi-swat situations, he was issued an 18" with pistol grips. They were for two different purposes, one for better effective range than the pistol gave him, the other for going indoors. (In that case both were 12-magnums)

I came here to lurk and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum.

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Now that is the kind of stuff

Now that is the kind of stuff I like to know. Especially the point about 20 gauge penetrating less through walls. Currently the combat shotgun will remain 12 gauge, but the 20 gauge does make more sense now. Thanks for the useful input.

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Making the Combat shotgun a

Making the Combat shotgun a rapid-fire 20Ga could be interesting, the weapon always was about raw DPS rather than things like 'accuracy' or 'sanity' so it'd fit if it were less accurate, but more powerful and faster firing than the other 20Ga weapons. Usually this'd run into issues with it being useless in the face of any and all armour, but what with 20Ga slugs being cheaper and easier to find than their 12Ga cousins it'd negate that without ruining the uniqueness of the weapon. It'd even provide a way to deal with their wide range of users - some of whom are supposed to be more challenging - by giving the more 'dangerous' users slug rounds (Obsidian have shown they're ok with giving out non-standard ammo to NPCs in lonesome road).

trollolololololol


 

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The "combat shotgun" now uses
  • The "combat shotgun" now uses 20 guage rounds (most military shotguns use 20 guage).

They actually don't. Door breaching and tactical light loads are 12 gauge. The double-barreled shotgun should be a 20 gauge weapon, so to allow lower powered characters like raiders to have it and to have a burst weapon alternative to the sawed-off shotgun. 20 gauge is intended to be a low-level caliber. There aren't many 75-100 skill guns using 9mm and 10mm for example :V

I think the combat shotgun should have stayed 12 gauge, as it seems like a mass-produced alternative to the original City-Killer combat shotgun that's easier to manufacture due to waning resource supplies. At skill 75, its main drawbacks compared to the hunting shotgun should have been far less accuracy (3.0, compared to the riot shotgun's 2.5 and the hunting shotgun's 1.5) with the exchange of being able to fire faster (1.2 multiplier * (30/14) (AttackLeft animation frequency, about 2.14 attacks per second) = 2.57142857143.

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The Combat Shotgun is a

The Combat Shotgun is a terrible weapon and should be taken out entirely. It's design is awful: the port is AHEAD of the barrel grip, wasting half the gun's barrel length. The only way to save the turkey is to take the basic design of the gun and remesh it to be a bullpup and full auto outside vats. Other than that, the gun should be replaced with Hunting shotguns, either by changing the spawnlists, or maybe just making the Combat Shotgun into a dilapidated Hunting shotgun, with lots of chicken wire rust and duct-tape. The Combat Shotgun in Anchorage should be changed to either a Riot Shotgun or a Pancor Jackhammer, roughly in line with it's Fallout 2 stats:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer_%28Fallout_2%29

JaxFirehart
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Pucque: The mention of most

Pucque: The mention of most military shotguns being 20ga was based on information from copper hamster, literally 3 posts above you. If you read the entire thread you will see that there was much discussion on it and I was originally leaning 12ga. Please read the thread and respond.

Charwo: We aren't in the habit of removing vanilla content because we don't like it.

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charwo wrote:

charwo wrote:

The Combat Shotgun is a terrible weapon and should be taken out entirely. It's design is awful: the port is AHEAD of the barrel grip, wasting half the gun's barrel length. The only way to save the turkey is to take the basic design of the gun and remesh it to be a bullpup and full auto outside vats. Other than that, the gun should be replaced with Hunting shotguns, either by changing the spawnlists, or maybe just making the Combat Shotgun into a dilapidated Hunting shotgun, with lots of chicken wire rust and duct-tape. The Combat Shotgun in Anchorage should be changed to either a Riot Shotgun or a Pancor Jackhammer, roughly in line with it's Fallout 2 stats:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer_%28Fallout_2%29

JaxFirehart wrote:

Charwo: We aren't in the habit of removing vanilla content because we don't like it.

That's what mods are for!

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Use the WMX new weapons and

Use the WMX new weapons and make it an AA-12, that's what I do :>

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charwo wrote:

charwo wrote:

 

The Combat Shotgun is a terrible weapon and should be taken out entirely. It's design is awful: the port is AHEAD of the barrel grip, wasting half the gun's barrel length. The only way to save the turkey is to take the basic design of the gun and remesh it to be a bullpup and full auto outside vats. Other than that, the gun should be replaced with Hunting shotguns, either by changing the spawnlists, or maybe just making the Combat Shotgun into a dilapidated Hunting shotgun, with lots of chicken wire rust and duct-tape. The Combat Shotgun in Anchorage should be changed to either a Riot Shotgun or a Pancor Jackhammer, roughly in line with it's Fallout 2 stats:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer_%28Fallout_2%29

I guess you can always grab some mods like these:

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/47528/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55467/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/36407/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55704/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/48097/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/47556/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/48064/?

(I am sure there are plenty more custom made shotguns in the nexus)

And replace the combat shotguns ingame with the weapons from those mods.

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I use the "City Killer" mod

I use the "City Killer" mod myself which replaces it just fine. 

Just don't complain when Talon company unloads on you with one or three. :)

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

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While I understand the notion

While I understand the notion to respect designer's decisions, which isn't quite lore, but very close, a certain amount of rationalization is required when putting two games together that should have shared the same 2077 together. There are huge problems with this:

1. The design problems with the "Combat Shotgun" I mentioned above.

2. The Riot Shotgun, presumably for riots, is much, much, MUCH more powerful.

3. The combat shotgun, if it is a military grade combat weapon, is WAY too common in the CW to be the weapon of any asshole raider. It would make sense if the raiders generally had Hunting Shotguns, which would be as common as sand in the the pre-war era, and much more simple to build in post war machine shops.

4. Lore has already been countermanded, and in a good way, by giving Overlords LMGs instead of Tri-Beams, and the gameplay is MUCH more immersive for it.

But, in praise of the the Combat Shotgun's niche: I LOVE it as a 20 gauge platform, and could see it as an actual combat platform, but mechanically it needs either a three round burst or full auto and a larger magazine (a 20 gauge military platform over a 12 gauge has the same dynamitic of the 5.56 over the 7.62), and it needs to be remeshed. The problems with me doing an individual replacement are 1. Lore loves wood stocks and 2. the point was never 'I don't like it', it is that we know what it takes for a firearm to work properly, and among the standardized firearms, this is the only one that is so badly designed it has no real world counterpart. If it's supposed to look like the PPSh-41 fine, but it needs to the magazine placement where the PPSh has it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41

Magazine receivers do NOT go in the middle of the barrel. It defeats the purpose of the barrel. This isn't an energy weapon, whose designs are all speculative by necessity. No government in their right minds would buy a combat shotgun as currently designed, and even an incompetent government (which the proto-Enclave WAS NOT) could not hope to avoid scandal.

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Ignoring the cosmetic issues,

Ignoring the cosmetic issues, which I agree are present, there is a valid reason for the two different shotguns. The Riot Shotgun was probably issued to police/SWAT or the like; it is 12ga to accommodate tear gas shells and similar. The Combat Shotgun was issued to the military, specifically the navy (due to the heavy naval presence in DC); it is 20ga for the reasons Copper Hamster mentioned, namely: it is more maneuverable and the smaller pellets are less likely to penetrate interior walls; both properties that would be useful in the confined quarters of a military ship.

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Better Looking Combat Shotgun

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Well now it looks like a 20

Well now it looks like a 20 gauge ppsh (not that it doesn't anyway, but now it's much closer.)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: Shotgun shells, and as long as we're at it .32 cal bullets, should have a breakdown recipe. Because even with the team's attempts at removing them from leveled lists they still do appear. Having a breakdown recipe for them means they at least have some sort of use.

Unlike other breakdown recipies though they should breakdown completely, as in break down in to as much parts as you would need to make new. 

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That's a good idea, as a

That's a good idea, as a backup, gonna put that on the bug tracker.

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rylasasin wrote:Because even

rylasasin wrote:

Because even with the team's attempts at removing them from leveled lists they still do appear.

That's a mod error, not a TTW error. Check your converted FO3 mods for ones that use those ammos.

As a counter argument to supporting those ammos: Instead of breakdown recipes we should script those ammos to silently remove themselves and add more appropriate ammo, as a last resort kind of fallback.

Plus it's less work on the guy who's currently doing the recipes.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

Plus it's less work on the guy who's currently doing the recipes.

It's not hard or time consuming at all to add a recipe, let alone to copy-paste an existing one. In fact I could probably do this in less than 60 seconds.

And I'm not even that good of a modder.

 

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... Good for you, But TTW

... Good for you, But TTW still isn't supposed to be supporting badly converted mods.

It is a mod by the way.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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throw an onAdd script on the

throw an onAdd script on the ammo to swap out for .22LR or .308, depending on level?

perms:  either a full fireworks display spelling out "Puppettron Made This" anytime a user accesses my content in-game, or just give me credit somewhere.

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charwo
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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

 

Better Looking Combat Shotgun

Fix'd

Fuckin A!!!!

Also, the Navy argument is a nice one, one I will happily accept. I didn't see the relation, but yeah, yeah, it's a really good one.

Still, doesn't a full auto feature on a military shotgun make sense? Whether or not it goes into TTW is incidental, but shouldn't it from logic?

Perren D'Wolff
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charwo wrote:

charwo wrote:

 

 

TJ wrote:

 

Better Looking Combat Shotgun

Fix'd

 

Fuckin A!!!!

Also, the Navy argument is a nice one, one I will happily accept. I didn't see the relation, but yeah, yeah, it's a really good one.

Still, doesn't a full auto feature on a military shotgun make sense? Whether or not it goes into TTW is incidental, but shouldn't it from logic?

Another thing about the utility of shotguns on ship, was that we we trained not to fire at the enemy on board but the metal deck plating and hull. This would cause a nasty ricochet effect and completely clear passageways. Also I served on submarine's and we were issued 12 gauge, although when I was temporally assigned to a few surface ships they where only issued small caliber weapons like the 20 gauge.

Also I would like to make one final point, this game take place years in the future, in an alternate timeline. So saying that, who knows if there military followed the same rules as our military.