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JaxFirehart
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Remove .32 Ammo

I am opening some things for general discussion, I want input from everyone who reads this on various topics listed below. The current goal is to recreate FO3 in the FNV engine while also integrating appropriate upgrades. The question is, what are the appropriate upgrades.

REMOVE .32 AMMUNITION
This one is a big deal and the one I most want input on. In the old TTW I removed the .32 ammo type completely. My reasoning was that there was no point in having one gun (.32 Pistol) that used the .32 ammo type. What I did was changed the .32 Pistol to the .45 Snubnose and then went through and changed all references to .32 ammo to either .45, .308, or 5.56mm depending on the context. This is a hell of a change and I am looking for thoughts.

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Edited by: JaxFirehart on 02/08/2013 - 20:31
dandys
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I have to say that I'm for

I have to say that I'm for keeping .32. It wasn't a big deal in Fallout 3, but playing the game without it would, I think, not feel very vanilla.

The way this question is phrased also leaves out the obvious other issue, the hunting rifle. Do we change all hunting rifles to .308, all to .32, or create two versions? In New Vegas the hunting rifle was turned into a higher tier weapon and I appreciate the fact that it uses .308 which was only for sniper rifles and not that useful in Fallout 3.

What if we changed Lincoln's repeater and/or the point lookout lever-action rifle to use .32 as well? That would create more uses for it (10mm and .44 magnum already are used enough by other weapons) and that might be further motivation to keep the ammo.

If we really want to change nothing ,and keep the .308 hunting rifle, I still would vote for keeping .32 for authenticity sake (not that it's necessarily realistic or anything, I know nothing about guns, but authentic to Fallout 3)

JaxFirehart
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On ammo, I'm waiting to see

On ammo, I'm waiting to see what everyone thinks. If we don't remove it then I agree we have to do something about making more guns use it. As for hunting rifles, my inclination is to make it .308 and make it rarer, instead replacing it with varmint rifles where appropriate.

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I am for putting .32 back in

I am for putting .32 back in/keeping it. My biggest problem with no .32 is low level raider tearing you up with .308 hunting rifles. Also it kinda takes away how nice ol painless was, it was a good low level rifle/sniper and even with the right build a downright dangerous weapon, especially if it had a scope (btw would that be a vanilla weapon mod or would we need soem kind of Fo3 weapon mod for it?). I vote keep it, unless it somehow causes problems or something.

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I'm not saying to get rid of

I'm not saying to get rid of the .32 Pistol, just change its ammo type to .44. I intend to update leveled npcs gear to take into account all the new weapons, as in low level raiders will use the .357 revolver and 9mm pistols, you won't see hunting rifles til its appropriate.

As for ol painless, I see your point, but I think it is pointless to have a .32 hunting rifle and a .308 hunting rifle, so getting rid of .32 doesn't change ol painless. If you have suggestions on how to fix ol painless that would be awesome.

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I do see how it is pointless

I do see how it is pointless on having 2 versions of the rifle, but if u dont add hunting rifles into level lists until later it will make having anythign but weak pistols an problem for a while. I havent looked if switching ol painless's caliber affected its stats, if not thats fine but I still think the issue of not having a rifle without adding in the varmit rifle (which im kind of against) would be a problem.

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Okay I see your point, if we

Okay I see your point, if we don't add the varmint rifle then low-level rifles will be practically non-existant. I don't see a problem with the varmint rifle though, why are you against it?

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Idk, I just feel like its a

Idk, I just feel like its a NV weapon, if no body else think that's the case we can add it. I won't argue, we need something.

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Vote .32 stays

steviestevens wrote:

Idk, I just feel like its a NV weapon, if no body else think that's the case we can add it. I won't argue, we need something.

I'm with Steve.  The Varmint Rifle is very much an NV weapon, and can't be our low-level weapon in the CW, not JUST because it is a very obviously NV weapon, but because it would throw off ammo balance dramatically.  Since the Varmint Rifle runs off of 5.56, you'd get a wealth of that ammo on low levels, where in vanilla FO3 most players had to wait for about level 8-10 before 5.56 weapons became really maintainable.  The only way the Varmint Rifle would fit is if it still ran off of .22LR, which would be a change to both NV and FO3 that's a little drastic for our main file.  That also doesn't handle the issue of Super Mutants, who can use the .32 HR but NOT the Varmint Rifle.  That would, again, be a drastic change we might not want to make.

As far as .32 ammo goes, I rather like it.  Yes, the .32 Pistol (which, side-note, I think needs to be renamed the .32 REVOLVER) is a piece of crap, but its prevalence in the hands of Raiders means it provides ample ammo for the .32 Hunting Rifle, which is not crap.  I dunno about you, but I used the .32 HR (and Ol' Painless) well into the middle-late parts of FO3.  I'm not alone in that either.  It's a key weapon role in FO3, one that can't be replaced with the .308 version due to the damage difference, and (again) the effect it would have on ammo availability.  You think too much 5.56 too early is a bad thing?  Imagine a wealth of .308 available to anyone from the start of the game.  All you'd have to do is grab a Sniper Rifle from the Hollowed-Out Rock near Megaton and be set for the rest of the game.

.32 does have its uses, just like .22LR has its uses.  Honestly, I think it's somewhere between 9mm and .22LR in terms of usefulness.  You CAN get by in the game without using it, but not everyone will, or will want to.  And honestly, let's face it: the .32 weapons are somewhat iconic, even in their admitted mediocrity.  When you think of some random Raider blasting away with a crappy weapon, what crappy weapon are you thinking of?  Either the Chinese Pistol or the .32 Pistol.  And when a low-level Super Mutant has a rifle, what rifle are you thinking of?  Undoubtably the .32 Hunting Rifle.

Now as far as the duplicate-appearance Hunting Rifle thing goes, there's not much we can do about it.  We could try and make a new shape, but that would probably be too "non-vanilla".  We could use the FO3 version of the shape, but the only difference with that is that it is missing the Iron Sights completely, which frankly is not a good change.  Honestly, my inclination is to just go with it.  I mean FO3 didn't have unique skins for their unique weapons, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Anyway, big wall of text.  TL;DR - Keep the .32 ammo, because there's no way the roles that the few .32 weapons fill can be replaced with anything from NV, at least without upsetting the balance of the game.

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You brought up a lot of good

You brought up a lot of good points, and, unfortunately, everything keeps coming full circle. I used the .32 HR and Ol Painless extensively throughout FO3 but skipped right to the Sniper Rifle more often than not in FNV and I agree they are iconic so I am against the removal, I just don't see a good way to avoid the removal. I am against having both a .32 Hunting Rifle and a .308 Hunting Rifle especially if they are basically identical. As a note on realism, .32 pistol ammo and .32 rifle ammo are not interchangable, but thats neither here nor there.

I propose we take for granted that the .32 hunting rifle is turned into a .308 hunting rifle and instead try to find solutions to the gap this creates.

As you know my proposed solution is to implement the varmint rifle as the new low level rifle and change the calber of the .32 revolver (I agree with the name change, no matter what).

What is it about the varmint rifle that makes it not fit in FO3? If it is just the name I would like to point out (via wikipedia) "Varmint or varmit is an American-English colloquialism, particularly common to the American east and South-east within the nearby bordering states of the vast Appalachia region" so if anything, the term fits hillbillies better than cowboys (I know, I'm grasping at straws here).

I really don't WANT to remove the .32, I just don't see any good alternatives.

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Why couldn't we have two

Why couldn't we have two hunting rifles?  They are decidedly not identical, other than appearance.  The damage, fire rate, accuracy, recoil, and ammunition are all different.  So we have to rename them to indicate the difference between the two.  Doesn't seem like much of a big deal.  And honestly it's the ONLY viable option I can see here.  .308 is too goddamn powerful in the CW to be handing out to low-level enemies like Wastelanders and SuperMutants.  The Varmint Rifle cannot be put in because 1) SuperMutants can't use it (check the weapon list), and 2) it would make 5.56mm ammo too abundant and available too early in an environment that heavily emphasizes 5.56mm automatic weapons.

Seriously, I really am having trouble understanding why having two different-caliber Hunting Rifles is a big problem.  Am I missing something?  I'm just not seeing any problem with this other than there would be two of one type of weapon, which might be slightly confusing but otherwise fine.  This, versus dramatically altering the balance of the whole game to consolidate them.

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My only issue with having two

My only issue with having two identical models is the that it breaks immersion. I can't look at the gun laying on the ground and know which gun I'm looking at. I understand where you are coming from with the 5.56mm ammo being so prevalent, but that is also how it is in FNV. I think the most common ammo type in FNV is 5.56mm.

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Hrm... perhaps a modified

Hrm... perhaps a modified skin then?  It would be trivial enough to play with the colors on the .32 HR model and make it visually distinct, without having to use a different model.  It would still be acceptable from a vanilla standpoint I think, since it would still look like the Hunting Rifle... just a little different.

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At first I agreed with Jax

At first I agreed with Jax but, Yuki has some very good points so, let me play with the texture and, see if I can do something to make it enough different to have two versions of the hunting rifle that use the same model. 

That might be the best compromise for this one. 

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dandys wrote:

dandys wrote:

What if we changed Lincoln's repeater and/or the point lookout lever-action rifle to use .32 as well? That would create more uses for it (10mm and .44 magnum already are used enough by other weapons) and that might be further motivation to keep the ammo.

Definitely not, if we can find a decent way for .32 to stand on its own then I will agree to keep it, but we shouldn't start changing other guns any more than is necessary.

steviestevens wrote:

My biggest problem with no .32 is low level raider tearing you up with .308 hunting rifles. Also it kinda takes away how nice ol painless was, it was a good low level rifle/sniper and even with the right build a downright dangerous weapon...

Low level raiders wouldn't get .308 hunting rifles, they would get weapons that are appropriate for their levels such as 9mm pistols, assault rifles and the like.

steviestevens wrote:

I do see how it is pointless on having 2 versions of the rifle, but if u dont add hunting rifles into level lists until later it will make having anythign but weak pistols an problem for a while... I think the issue of not having a rifle without adding in the varmit rifle (which im kind of against) would be a problem.

While I understand the hesitance on the varmint rifle, I don't think it is inappropriate. Even if it is, the Service Rifle is a decent low level alternative.

yukichigai wrote:

it would throw off ammo balance dramatically.  Since the Varmint Rifle runs off of 5.56, you'd get a wealth of that ammo on low levels, where in vanilla FO3 most players had to wait for about level 8-10 before 5.56 weapons became really maintainable.

While I want to keep FO3 as close to original as possible, we need to include the upgrades and tweaks supplied by FNV. FNV changed the prevalence of 5.56mm, it is available from the start of the game (varmint rifle) and through to the end of the game (marksman carbine). FNV made 5.56 the most common ammo type. Even if we don't include the varmint rifle, there is still the service rifle.

yukichigai wrote:

That also doesn't handle the issue of Super Mutants, who can use the .32 HR but NOT the Varmint Rifle.  That would, again, be a drastic change we might not want to make.

Super mutants can use the assault rifle at low levels and grow into hunting rifles and chinese assault rilfes as the player levels up.

yukichigai wrote:

Why couldn't we have two hunting rifles?  They are decidedly not identical, other than appearance.  The damage, fire rate, accuracy, recoil, and ammunition are all different.  So we have to rename them to indicate the difference between the two.  Doesn't seem like much of a big deal.  And honestly it's the ONLY viable option I can see here.  .308 is too goddamn powerful in the CW to be handing out to low-level enemies like Wastelanders and SuperMutants.  The Varmint Rifle cannot be put in because 1) SuperMutants can't use it (check the weapon list), and 2) it would make 5.56mm ammo too abundant and available too early in an environment that heavily emphasizes 5.56mm automatic weapons.

Seriously, I really am having trouble understanding why having two different-caliber Hunting Rifles is a big problem.  Am I missing something?  I'm just not seeing any problem with this other than there would be two of one type of weapon, which might be slightly confusing but otherwise fine.  This, versus dramatically altering the balance of the whole game to consolidate them.

I NEVER have suggested just handing out the .308 hunting rifle at low levels. The super mutants don't NEED to be able to use the varmint rifle, they have the assault rifle they can use. It doesn't have the range of the hunting rifle, but SM had terrible accuracy anyway. Don't forget that there were super mutants in FNV, so the game designers must have already created a balance somehow. I have already addressed the ammo change, so I won't repeat myself. Having two different hunting rifles is a problem because our choice is to inject a brand new weapon and work it into the game, or balance around the fact that the Hunting Rifle was upgraded. The first option requires creating a new injected record, restructuring the leveled lists, and changing item placement versus the second option which is just restructuring the leveled lists. Let's say we create a new weapon, the .32 hunting rifle, and reskin it what do we call it? I think calling it ".32 Hunting Rifle" and ".308 Hunting Rifle" is tacky. So we have to come up with a new name, no big deal. So now we have a gun that doesn't look like the standard hunting rifle, has a different name and has a different formid. It's basically a different gun now. So now we have added a completely new gun rather than  working around the fact that they upgraded the original gun in FNV. Creating a brand new weapon isn't our job. We need to work with what we have.

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I'm new to this forums, but I

I'm new to this forums, but I hope I can chime in on this a little bit.

 

Unlike the rest of the folk here, I say remove the .32 ammo. It's a very redundant ammo type which IMO can be easily replaced with the .22LR round with little to no difference. This also makes the .22LR a bit more useful, as it won't just apply to the suppressed weapons in NV, but to the revolver as well. Thing is, that in FO3, you get a 10mm Pistol before you even exit the Vault, and you do find plenty of 10mm rounds throughout the beginning of the game, making the .32 pistols and it's round irrelevant, at least in my replays.

 

Varmint rifles are just sporting rifles, and as such, they SHOULD be fairly common ANYWHERE in the US, because those are the kind of rifles used to hunt game and vermin, thus the name. It's not a country weapon per se, but it's a kind of weapon I can see a game hunter wield. IMO the NV Varmint Rifle SHOULD'VE been chambered to the .22LR anyways, as it makes more sense in the beginning than the 5.56 round, since you really don't get 5.56 rounds early in NV except for the ones Sunny Smiles gives you.

 

What you can do as well is simply substitute the .22 Pistol for the 9mm Pistol from NV. It's based on the Browning Hi-Power, which I can definitely see being used in the CW. The 9mm Pistol is THE entry-level Guns pistol in NV, and I can see Raiders wielding it, alongside Chinese Pistols.

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Always feel free to chime in,

Always feel free to chime in, that's why I made these discussions public, I want everyone's opinion.

Couple things: I already plan on toning down the vault 101 weapons and armor. Probably 9mm pistol and ammo. I need to come up with some way of weakening the armor, thing is, vault 101 security armor is practically the same as vault 34 security armor. That is one of the most porminent balance flaws in TTW, without modification, by the time you exit vault 101 you have an excellent early weapon and armor that is viable mid to late game. I'm getting off topic here...

I, personally, agree on including the varmint rifle, but I seem to be heavily outnumbered at the moment, so I bow to the majority, for now. As for changing the calber of the .32 revolver to a .22, that's something I hadn't thought of and makes good sense. I think I will plan on doing that unless I hear a better idea.

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Only 2 guns use the .32 round

Only 2 guns use the .32 round: The .32 Pistol and the Hunting Rifle. If you substituted the Hunting Rifle for the Varmint Rifle, and made the Varmint Rifle .22, it'd make for a more viable round, IMO. Heck, I'd say remove 10mm pistols from Raiders, and maybe make it Tier 2, since it's a slightly bigger round with a slightly more powerful pistol behind it. If it was up to me, I'd do it like this:

 

Give Raiders Chinese Pistol, .22 Revolver, Varmint Rifle, as well as their usual melee weapons.

 

For balance, IIRC the .22 Pistol had a pretty high RoF, and if you give it the .357 Revolver's ability to never jam, it'd make it a pretty reliable weapon early on. Lower 9mm Health, make the .22 Revolver a bit more reliable when it comes to health, but make the 9mm Pistol stronger and capable of carrying more ammo. Make the Chinese Pistol heavier, and lower RoF, but hit harder. That way, you have a nice balance between ammo capacity, damage, RoF, cost, and weight. This is without taking into account weapon mods, which can be doable and IMO should be implemented to vanilla FO3 weapons, but that's for another topic.

 

So in this Tier 1 1-handed weapon triangle, I think you have a pretty nice trade-off. Want higher DPS at the cost of low ammo capacity? .22 Revolver. Want high ammo capacity and average damage with low CND? 9mm Pistol. Want a low RoF, heavy hitting gun? The Chinese Pistol. 

 

 

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Those are all good ideas, the

Those are all good ideas, the only thing I disagree with is changing the varmint rifle's caliber to .22. I agree that is how it should be, but it is beyond the scope of Tale of Two Wastelands. As for your suggested weapon triangle, you forgot to take into account the .357 Revolver and the Silenced .22 Pistol, but the tension between the three you suggested is a decent idea.

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Well, the .357 revolver is

Well, the .357 revolver is too Western to really fit in DC, what with it's grip made of antler horn and all. As for the Silenced .22 Pistol, it's a semi-rare weapon with a niche spot: stealth-oriented characters. In NV, it's not very powerful, but has high crit chance and crit damage bonus. As is, it's fairly balanced against the triangle. IMO the only other revolver that fits with DC is the Police Pistol from Dead Money, but it's a single-action revolver which I wouldn't envision DC Police using, to be honest.

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ok, how bout this

ok, how bout this (brainstorming):

22 rifle, call it a 'Small Game rifle' or 'plinking rifle'. It replaces the hunting rifle from FO3 and the name has a more 'yankee-east' feel than 'varmit' rifle. I would expect a wood stocked bolt action with basic open sights, dovetailed for adding a scope mod later. It would not be silenced except as a mod.

22 revolver replaces the 32 revolver. It would not be silenced, except as a mod. (gun nut mode: There are a lot of '32' calibers in rifles, but none of the 32 revolver rounds really 'made it' in rifles, they are all rifle specific rounds; also 32 pistols are much less popular in the US except as holdout/small concealed guns).

In regards to the shotgun, if you wanted to keep it on unique ammo there's always 16 gauge, which was generally more popular in the east than the west anyway.

(Ironically, the over/under shotgun is also more of a eastern gun than western one, but oh well...)

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What people seem to forget is

What people seem to forget is that they are going to make two versions. The merged version could easily include things like NV weapons in Fallout 3, and possibly removing .32, and for people who want a very vanilla Fallout 3 experience, the base version could keep .32 and have two hunting rifles.

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If you keep the .32 and the

If you keep the .32 and the two guns, alter the gun's texture. It's probably an easy change. Make Fallout 3 darker and retain the same texture for New Vegas. A black gun is different from a brown gun.

I don't really care whether you remove it or not honestly. If it's easier to implement, do it.

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I say NOT. I use it

I say NOT. I use it extendedly with altered name and weapons. I am afraid the removal will cause errors which may same to others. To say, there are abundant resources in Nexus and modgames for replacement. These are the pistol replacement and semi automatic rifle I'm using, deal less damage than .308 but offset by decent firerate and small AP bonus. 

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Seems to me that the easiest

Seems to me that the easiest solution is to keep .32 and just have two hunting rifles.  In order to simplify things a bit for the player, tweak the texture on one of them.  

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The Hunting rifle was always

The Hunting rifle was always a problem in FO3, primarily because it made most other weapons useless. Compared to it the assault rifles are costly to maintain, costly to use in combat, hard to obtain and generally awful. It has quite a few definite edges over the sniper rifle (more durable, more available, cheaper and more abundant ammo) but few drawbacks (marginally less accurate, lower per-hit damage). In general the weapons in Fallout 3 were poorly balanced, and the Hunting rifle was symptomatic of this, it was essentially the go-to weapon for almost every situation for guns users with only a moderate weakness (outside of vats) at close range due to its mediocre rate of fire.

.32 Pistols made this problem worse by being an awful weapon you would never actually use the rounds in, but coming with the ammo when looted from enemies, allowing low level raiders to be 'harvested' for the ammo. Now although this is possible for most weapons if you're careful with shot placement and ammo management, the hunting rifle (by virtue of being a mini-sniper) was especially bad for it, considering the bulk of hunting rifle armed enemies in the game and the AI's vulnerability to exactly the tactics the hunting rifle favours (sniping/sneak crits). The Sniper rifle allows players to do this as does (to some degree) the scoped .44 but those are moderated by the high operating costs (ammo/repairs) and lack of enemies supplying the relevant ammo and weapons for maintenance.

TL;DR Hunting rifle is poorly balanced like almost all of the FO3 weapons, they need a re-think.

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@Jax - Different idea, what

@Jax - Different idea, what about removing the changes made from FNV to the Hunting Rifle and keeping the FO3 version instead? I didn't really use the Hunting Rifle in FNV myself, I saved the ammo for Sniper Rifles instead. Boone would just need a minor change to use a Sniper Rifle instead, (he's first recon, I didn't see why he didn't use a Sniper Rifle in the first place, I also always found Boone Over Powered when you got him, so I don't see a change to the sniper rifle much of a problem) and thus keeping the balance in Fallout 3 and keeping the .32 ammo instead.

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I am actually for removing

I am actually for removing .32, and changing the Varmint Rifle to .22lr, replacing the Hunting Rifle with the Varmint. In terms of low level balancing, this change is a massive improvement to both games. Try out the .22lr Varmint Rifle restoration to see what I mean. After the .22lr was de-nerfed in a patch, the change made sense, and made the ammo progression more natural.

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One hard and fast rule that

One hard and fast rule that Chuck and I have agreed on is that we will not change anything in FNV. So as much as I agree that the Varmint Rifle should be .22LR (and I use the mod when I'm not testing TTW) it won't be changed by TTW. Basically, if you run TTW and nothing else, the only difference you will notice is some FO3 weapons popping up in the Mojave.

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I still think that changing

I still think that changing the name of the CWHunting Rifle is the way to go here. Frankly, given the way ammo and damage is handled, a more realistic mod for a few fo3 weapons would be:

Hunting Rifle -> Small game (or something) Rifle, .22lr. Maybe tweak the damage down a bit to make it less 'go to' (Am replaying FO3 right now and I carry basically 3 guns: Hunting Rifle for day to day work, the Blackhawk for big uglies, and the Xuanlong for 'make a mess'. Well... I also have the Firelance which fell on me my first trip out of Megaton !.! but I've only shot it twice.)
32 revolver -> .22 Revolver
Silly tiny damage Chinese Pistol -> .22lr
 

I came here to lurk and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum.

Codor
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Yes hello I'm new here but I

Yes hello I'm new here but I've been watching for a while and thought I'd speak up. I am happy you aren't changing anything FNV related. It would break compatibility with a lot of other mods.

I think keeping the .32 caliber around would be a good idea. I could understand if a nerf or buff for other weapons was in order. Maybe slightly improved early game assault rifles, using the vastly superior FNV sniper rifle, and buffing the .32 pistol while lowering the .32 Hunting rifle's damage slightly. And quite honestly I just love the .32 it's got my heart. I like having a gun that looks like the big bad .308 but is much more reasonable when you miss a shot.

On the topic of raiders I just thought I'd bring up how much I like running into a raider with a flamer I wish I could see raiders with special weapons a little more often. A nice point to is some of the early game FNV weapons can be added for variety like the 9mm SMG, and the 20 GA shotguns, making repair parts for the hunting rifle a little less common and adding more flavor.

And from an immersion stand point, people complained about looking at a weapon and not knowing what it shoots immediately, many popular firearms come in different calibers few of which can be told by a cursory glance.

Cirmson_drake1945
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I vote to remove .32 ammo but

I vote to remove .32 ammo but I don't want to lose the capital wastes hunting rifle. I used the hunting rifle nearly the whole time i played fallout 3 and would hate to see its removal, why not instead make it the capital wastelands version of the cowboy repeater?

.357 ammo would be a good ammo type to use for the gun as it would mean that players that come from NV and don't want to part with the repeater would be able to find ammo

 

R Blaik

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Jax - What about a simple

Jax - What about a simple name change. Just adding .32 to the front of the Fallout 3 hunting Rifles? Would that fix the problem here and leave the .32 Ammo in the game?

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i would like to see the .32

i would like to see the .32 ammo kept in the game i know that im new here (great work by the way) but i feel that the .32 hunting Rifle was a major part of FO3 and i would hate to see it go

this is just my opinion and i only offer it because you asked for input from everyone

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I believe that .32 should be

I believe that .32 should be kept, however it shouldn't be as common as it is out in the capital wasteland. The .32 caliber weapons are the perfect starter weapons and is a staple in FO3.

Least that's my opinion

subtledoctor
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This.  The cowboy repeater in

"I used the hunting rifle nearly the whole time i played fallout 3 and would hate to see its removal, why not instead make it the capital wastelands version of the cowboy repeater?

.357 ammo would be a good ammo type to use for the gun as it would mean that players that come from NV and don't want to part with the repeater would be able to find ammo"

This.  The cowboy repeater in NV plays a very similar role to the hunting rifle in FO3: slow to shoot but decent power for sniping in the early game (earlyish anyway, levels 3-10 or so).  I think you could drop the cowboy repeater (maybe with a name change to eliminate "cowboy") in place of the CW hunting rifle, and change nothign else, and the game would play almost perfectly.  Then, change the .32 pistol to use .357 rounds as well - call it a ".38 Special" and make it similar to the .357 revolver - and that gun would finally be useful.  IMHO this would be relatively simply to implement, and make for a great improvement.

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Why they changed the Varmint

Why they changed the Varmint from .22LR I don't think I'd ever be able to guess. It makes more sense and balances things better. However, I totally understand not wanting to change FNV in any way.

I think the .32 ammo should be gotten rid of. Convert the hunting rifle, re-balance it to the new higher power, and bump over something from FNV to fill the gap. There are plenty of rifles in  FNV to find something to fill the gap nicely. 

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I'd like something to be done

I'd like something to be done about the .32HR, whether it's upgrading it to .308 and removing it from lower-levellists, or replacing it with Varmint Rifles or a unique-looking .22LR or .357 replacement. There are some nice breech-loading homemade piperifles floating around out there on the nexus that could conceivably use .32 pistol rounds. But I don't see why the .32 pistol can't happily exist even if it's the only gun to use that ammo.

If you can't let the .32 caliber stay for that one pistol, then I'd suggest that it become a .38 Special (Make a new Ammo formlist including only .38SPC). It looks too big for a .22LR unless you upped it to 8 or 9 chambers, and it looks too small for .357 or .44

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We currently replaced the DC

We currently replaced the DC .32HR with the NV .308HR. The .32 pistol is now a .22 Revolver. I agree it doesn't really look like a .22 Revolver but it seemed the best decision at the time. Making it a .357 Revolver makes it conflict with NVs .357 revolver. Making it a .44 Revolver is reasonable in my opinion but seeing as how it is a skill 0 weapon it makes .44 ammo available too early. Your idea of .38 special is a good one, I am against it because I would prefer to allow it to use more than one ammo. If we allow it to use .357 we get back to the same problem as before. It bears thinking on and I will keep it in mind. Thanks.

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Sounds like a good, workable

Sounds like a good, workable solution.  I really do like the idea of a .38 special (exclusively) though.

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Yeah I really like the .38

Yeah I really like the .38 special myself. I am considering it, believe me, if I can find a way to put it in and make it fit, I definitely will.

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So I've been doing some

So I've been doing some research on .32 ammo to see what the opportunities are here.

The .32 pistol in fallout 3 is a Smith and Wesson (S&W) revolver.  According to wikipedia, there are four types of ammo that are the same diameter and can be used interchangeably - they all have the same .375 rim diameter.

  1. .32 S&W
  2. .32 S&W Long
  3. .32 H&R Magnum
  4. .327 Federal ("super") Magnum

The Magnums pack quite a punch it seems.  Unfortunately, all of these ammo types are almost always used in revolvers. 

There are not many ".32" rifles that fire a small handgun (S&W .32) cartridge - most of the so-called .32 rifles have a rim diameter that is much larger than .375 - between .4 and .6 for most of them.

So here are my suggestions to round out the .32 - I know this is all pie in the sky, since an expert modder with experience making custom weapons would need to make these:

  1. Create .32 Magnum ammo type that is more powerful than regular FO3 .32 ammo
     
  2. Restore FO3 .32 S&W pistol and .32 S&W ammo - this should be pretty easy
    Low-level (pistol): Existing FO3 S&W .32 pistol - it cannot use magnum ammo type (since the cylinder isn't long enough to hold the larger magnum bullets)
     
  3. Create two new weapons
    Mid-level (rifle): Make the Marlin Model 1894 lever-action rifle, which had a .32 H&R magnum variant.  It appears to be one of the very few .32 rifles made that uses the same ammo size as the .32 S&W (and it's no longer made, and not listed on wikipedia, but easy to find online) - it can use magnum or regular .32 ammo

    High-level (long-barrel competition revolver): Make the 8-shot .327 Federal Magnum Ruger Blackhawk - this appears to be the "best" .32 option out there - it can use magnum or regular .32 ammo

So yeah. I think that's the only realistic way to do it, since really, there aren't a lot of .32 options in real life either.  At least not ones that would be compatible with the S&W .32 that is in FO3.

So.  Any custom weapon geniuses want to volunteer for this?

subtledoctor
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FWIW I don't know that

FWIW I don't know that realism is all that importanrt.  Bethesda wasn't being very realistic when they positively *littered* the DC are with 1) Chinese weapons, notwithstanding DC was not a warzone; and 2) hunting rifles firing .32 pistol ammo, notwithstanding your research that there were "very few" made.  Obsidian wasn't being very realistic when they made what is pretty clearly a .22 rifle but had it using 5.56 rounds.  There are hundreds or thousands of different kinds of firearms that might turn up for survivors after a devastating war, and Bethesda put about twelve of them in the game.  Obsidian put 20 or so in NV.  Does it really matter if TTW replaces a few of the guns, and has a different twelve than Bethesda's twelve?  It's wildly unrealistic either way. 

Ease-of-implementation trumps, along with playability.  If the easiest way for the team to deal with things is to make the .32 revolver simply use different ammo (.22 or .357 or .38, whatever) and the game plays the way you expect it to, then I say good job.

In fact, I think the simplicity of implementation is also valuable because people will no doubt want to use mods that add a greater variety of more (and more realistic) weapons to the game... so it's probably best to try to make sure mod compatibility is not broken.  (...which it may not be anyway, I don't know - just making the general point.)

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Btw here's a point as far as

Btw here's a point as far as realism goes (yes I'm contradicting myself, I don't care :P): DC is an dense, urban, east-coast city, meaning it would have been full of cops before the war.  And the 50s/60s vibe suggests life in the era before police departments switched over from revolvers to semiautomatics.  So you could realistically expect that there would be a substantial number of .38 revolvers around the city, looted from police armories in the 200 years since the war.  From my perspective, using 9mm pistols and .38 revolvers in place of Chinese pistols and .32 revolvers would *enhance* realism, not detract from it, in a game that takes place in DC.

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Why not use the worthless .38

Why not use the worthless .38 round? Make the .32 pistol have high damage like 35 and then alter .38 to decrease the damage by 50%. Then you could make the .32 use only .38 or .357 ammo list that way you can make use of the already implemented .38 round and make it so that the .32 pistol is now a high spread low range weapon with a fast fire rate and good damage. Compared to the standard .357 which could be low rof, medium dam, but high accuracy. Then when .357 becomes common they could be used to their full potential and not just be trashed. The same could be done with .308. Make some 7.62 surplus that decreases damage by 50% and some accuracy, make it as common as .32 was in vanilla FO3 then later standard .308 becomes viable and you can use that now. It would also mean you could use the sniper rifle early but only as a DMR.

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Whatever the decision we

Whatever the decision we ultimately settle on, the .308 hunting round is just too powerful for a tier 1 gun to have.  Raiders in the CW need some kind of long-range weapon.  If we merge all NV/FO3 weapons, then varmint rifle would work, but I think merging the weapon lists as part of the base mod is a bad idea.  Short version: it's easier to scramble an egg than unscramble it.

I am still rabidly for keeping .32 as a caliber, despite the fact that it applies to only two weapons.  It's lore-friendly, and really an iconic element of FO3.  That aside, we should have something low powered in terms of a hunting weapon.  .38 special could work, though we run the risk of oversaturating the .357-equivalent caliber weapons.

If we can't keep .32 as a caliber (seriously, can't stress enough how much I'd like to), I'd say we should pick a caliber that DOESN'T have a rifle weapon associated with it.  For low level, right now that's either .22LR or .9mm.  .22LR has the silenced .22 SMG, and for people running a specific mod the Varmint Rifle.  9mm on the other hand has no BASE rifle, although arguably since 9mm is taking the place of 10mm in the CW the Lever-Action Rifle should be chambered for it.

Anyway, that's my recommendation: stick with .32 as a caliber, and failing that go with a .22LR or 9mm rifle.  What the weapon looks like beyond that... no idea.

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I would suggest replacing the

I would suggest replacing the .32 Hunting Rifle with the Lever-action Rifle from Point Lookout, but that might cause more balancing problems than it could solve. It does 40 base damage and applies 35 extra damage that bypasses armor when used by an NPC.

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The Lever-action rifle is too

The Lever-action rifle is too much a distinct part of Point Lookout.  For Small Guns players, the Lever-action Rifle and the Backwater Rifle were THE rewards for playing that DLC.  As much as I would love to have access to the LAR right off the bat, it would deviate from the feel of the game too much.

Side-note: its easy enough to limit that extra damage effect to when it is being used by specific types of NPCs.  The reason its in there is to make the hillbillies in PL hit that much harder.  Same with the extra damage on the Tri-beam Laser Rifle and Super Mutant Overlords.  We can retain those abilities but confine them to the specific classes the weapons were limited to in FO3, which will stop any weird balance issues.

I honestly think we're either going to need to make a new gun, or bite the bullet (heh) and reuse an existing one.  Reusing a gun would be my preference, ideally with a new skin to differentiate between the other version.

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Maybe make a shitt(ier)

Maybe make a shitt(ier) Hunting Rifle model that uses .32 or make the .308 vanilla model more pristine?

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I personally don't even miss

I personally don't even miss the .32 hunting rifle. Besides I always thought the rifle should have been a .22 anyway.  But I also think the varmit rifle should be a .22. But that is just my opinion.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

Couple things: I already plan on toning down the vault 101 weapons and armor. Probably 9mm pistol and ammo. I need to come up with some way of weakening the armor, thing is, vault 101 security armor is practically the same as vault 34 security armor. That is one of the most porminent balance flaws in TTW, without modification, by the time you exit vault 101 you have an excellent early weapon and armor that is viable mid to late game. I'm getting off topic here...

The vault 101 security armor has the same DT as regular leather armor, which is pretty easy to find. Plus, if people have courier's stash installed, they can get superior equipment from there. I don't personally, for balance reasons, and by the time people reach the mall, they can get combat armor from the shop in the museum of history. I agree with implementing the 9mm pistol though. Evil characters can also raid megaton before blowing it up and get a chinese assault rifle from quite near the start, and good characters can raid Tenpenny Tower and get a whole range of armour and weapons.

I should probably stop rambling now haha. In conclusion, i believe starting equipment isn't really a big issue, and apologies for my comment being off topic for this particular thread.

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