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Befo
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Factions and Reputation (May contain spoilers)

This is one I hadn't seen posted yet, so I figured I'd get us started. FNV has a reputation system, FO3 does not, but the factions in FO3 are perfect for the Rep system.

I'll start out by showing the Major and Minor factions in each game (I used the Wiki to help, so if I have missed any please let me know.)

Mojave Wasteland - Major Factions:

Brotherhood of Steel

Caesar's Legion

Great Khans

NCR

Powder Gangers

 

Mojave Wasteland - Minor Factions:

Boomers

Followers of Apocalypse

Freeside

Novac

The Strip

Goodsprings

Primm


There are other sub-factions, but I have only listed the ones with Reputation assigned to them, according to the Wiki. Following a similar format to the one above, here are the CW factions. Whether or not they should be assigned reputation is the point of this discussion. 

Capital Wasteland - Major Factions:

Brotherhood of Steel

Brotherhood Outcasts

Enclave

 

Capital Wasteland - Minor Factions:

Raiders

Talon Company

Regulators

Megaton 

Tenpenny Tower

Arefu

The Family

Canterbury Commons (not listed on the Wiki, I added this one)

Slavers

 

Other minor CW factions:

Chinese Remnant

Republic of Dave (might need to move this one up)

Reilly's Rangers (might need to move this one up)

Underworld (might need to move this one up, not listed on the Wiki, I added this one)

Little Lamplight (might need to move this one up, not listed on the Wiki, I added this one)

Andale (not listed in the Wiki, I added this one)

The Institute

The Railroad

Littlehorn and Associates

Rivet City (Wiki lists RC Council and RC Security as separate factions, might need to move this one up)

Super Mutants

Vault 101 (might need to move this one up)

 

CW DLC Factions:

Pitt Slaves

Pitt Raiders

 

CW Religions (Don't know if these should be included in rep or not):

Apostles of the Holy Light

Church of the Children of Atom

Point Lookout Tribals

Saint Monica's Church

Treeminders



That's it for the breakdown of factions. I'll update and edit the OP here with more info as the discussion progresses. 

I guess the major questions are:

1) Is it possible to add reputations to the FO3 factions?

2) Should we even bother adding reputation to the FO3 factions, or just wait to have rep until the player reaches the MW?

3) How do we deal with factions like the Brotherhood of Steel, which exist in both the CW and MW?

4) How would certain quests or objectives change FO3 reputations?

5) Should the various religions be included in the reputation system?

6) Which factions/sub-factions should be given reputation and which should be left out, and why?

7) What should the effects of reputation be? (bonuses for Accepted/Liked/Idolized, penalties for Shunned/Hated/Vilified)

 

Discuss!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by: TJ on 05/17/2014 - 15:50
Risewild
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I am no developer but I can

I am no developer but I can answer to the best of my abilities some of the questions .

1) As far as I know yes we can add reputation to FO3 factions.

2) I think that there are plans to add reputation to FO3 factions in the future.

3) Brotherhood of Steel from FO3 already has it's own faction in TTW, so it is not related to the NV one.

4) I don't know if it was already planned something about quests or objectives, but I think the game already does something like that, ( ex: if you attack slavers or help slaves in some missions then slavers will attack on sight) so I think that we just need to polish it or something so it works in stages or something (vilified, accepted, idolized, etc.), I might be saying something really wrong on this one since I have no idea how to code, mod or how the game deals with stuff like this, so anyone with more knowledge should correct me if I'm wrong.

5) I haven't think about that, so I really don't have an opinion yet, will have to consider several things before I reach a conclusion.

6) Well in my opinion all major ones should have a rep system, also the regulators and talon company, because you will get hunted by them if your karma is too bad or too good so maybe the higher your karma the better would be your rep with the Regulators (something like "due to your good deeds your actions reached the ears of the regulators making you liked by them" and "Due to your good deeds word is that some evil powers are considering putting a contract on your head"). I will leave the other minor ones out of this post because like the religions I didn't think about it yet.

7) Well, bonuses would probably include price reduction, the BoS could reduce the price of repairing your stuff too, if Megaton gets a reputation system maybe associate it to the gifts people get for you if your karma is high enough, so if you have a high reputation with Megaton you will get lower prices and if you have the max reputation (Idolized) you will get price reduction and get a gift from time to time, the same with Paradise Falls for example. Need to think about this some more to come out with suggestions .

Hope my post helped starting the discussion you are expecting .

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I've attempted adding FO3

I've attempted adding FO3 factions/ rep on the demo version previously. I had Megaton semi functional around the time work stopped on it. I never did manage to get disguises to work quite right though. Quite a bit of work goes into getting it functioning properly, but definitely well worth the effort it would take to get it set up.

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"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Personally I'd say stick to

Personally I'd say stick to the major settlements and factions. BOS, Outcasts, Megaton, Paradise falls and Rivet city.

I wouldn't even bother including the Enclave, the player is meant to dislike them from the out (they do kill your dad after all). So I cant see the point of including ways to boost your rep with them, I suppose if you agree to take the FEV from Eden you could get a big boost that'd stop them from attacking you while you make your way to the citadel at least; but it'd be all pretty much erased when the player has to fight their way to the purifier.

As for the rewards from Megaton/Paradise fall I would say that you can only get them if you have the appropriate karma and/or a high rep with that settlement... Just a thought, but why would the slavers at paradise fall care if you were considered 'nice' by people in the wasteland when you're one of their best slavers?

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Just what I was looking for,

Just what I was looking for, Risewild. Good feedback. I am in the same boat as you; I am more of a player, not really a modder and definitely no coder. So while I can spout ideas all day long, it is up to someone else to make it happen. My modding skills are very limited, usually I just change a value or two here or there to tailor things to the way I like them, or maybe solve a conflict. My only thought it posting this thread was that this was a discussion that needed to be had yet hadn't been started, and I had a few ideas to toss around. 

I think a few of these are going to be tricky. For instance, Megaton and Tenpenny rep.


Talon and Regulator might also be tricky. They are based upon Karma instead of regular reputation, and the Regulators at least have a perk associated with them already. We'd want to avoid anything that may bork turning in fingers for the perk. Plus, karma is easier to change than Reputation, at least in the CW. You can always give a ton of purified waters to the Megaton bum to gain Good Karma, or engage in a kleptomania spree for Bad Karma. Plus, the way I understand that Rep works, you gain points on one scale, and lose them on another, whereas Karma is both on the same scale. This results in the Mixed Reps in FNV, but when you have a faction tied to Karma as well, I foresee issues. 

Just a few thoughts. I'll save most of my other ideas until we get some more feedback. 

EDIT: Just noticed TJ and Pwinkle wrote something while I was typing mine out, hehe. Didn't mean to leave you guys out. 

/befo

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Ultimately karma will go out

Ultimately karma will go out the window in DC, most factions will respond based on rep alone with individuals responding to karma (basically the same as FNV). The East and West BoS (as well as the outcasts) are all separate factions with separate reputations. For the enclave I intend to start the player as vilified with them and give no opportunities to improve that standing, which completely defeats the purpose of a reputation...

Every settlement in the game will have its own reputation tracking, including tiny ones like Arefu and large ones like Rivet City.

I am fairly familiar with disguises and should have no trouble rigging them up. I did it for the old Demo version (i even overhauled the entire disguise system to make it more reliable).

Basically I would like to set up every conceivable faction to have reputation, even if it seems pointless, so that modders can modify it without having to do it themselves. I personally would love to set up an alternate story where you can side with the enclave (as a mod). I'm sure others would like to do similar things.

One potential issue I see is Tenpenny Tower. Off the top of my head, I don't see any way to handle the ghouls without setting up two reputations. Then we need some way to toggle which one is displayed when you hover over tenpenny tower.

As for megaton being one sided, I agree, unless you go on a killing spree or nuke the place, you are almost guaranteed to become idolized early in the game, and I think that's fine, personally. It's not quite in line with how FNV is set up, but the settings are so different that some allowances must be made.

To be honest, I think there should be a separate thread for EACH faction and we can discuss in there whether or not reputation fits and how to implement it etc...

TJ
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JaxFirehart wrote:I am fairly

JaxFirehart wrote:

I am fairly familiar with disguises and should have no trouble rigging them up. I did it for the old Demo version (i even overhauled the entire disguise system to make it more reliable).

That is too cool. Looking forward to seeing this implemented.

JaxFirehart wrote:

As for megaton being one sided, I agree, unless you go on a killing spree or nuke the place, you are almost guaranteed to become idolized early in the game, and I think that's fine, personally. It's not quite in line with how FNV is set up, but the settings are so different that some allowances must be made.

I think Megaton would be similar to Goodsprings. If the Player does the schoolhouse and the tutorial you're almost guaranteed to be idolized. Goodsprings only has like a 15 for rep though if I remember right. Megaton should probably be 20-30, but not too much higher than that.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

One potential issue I see is Tenpenny Tower. Off the top of my head, I don't see any way to handle the ghouls without setting up two reputations. Then we need some way to toggle which one is displayed when you hover over tenpenny tower.



I know you aren't really planing to do bugfixes or changes to Vanilla, but there used to be a mod out there that allowed the ghouls and Tenpenny residents to live together if you chose that route in the quest, instead of having Ray Phillips get his panties in a bunch a few days afterwards and killing all the Tenpenny residents anyways. It was called Tenpenny Ghouls at Peace or Ghouls Cohabitate I think. It always irked me that you worked your butt off to make everyone happy, and get rid of the residents that didn't want the ghouls there, then Ray just decides to kill the rest off anyways. 

That may be one solution to having the two factions present, to work this mod into the game. If the player chooses to kill the ghouls, then thats one way; if they kill the residents by letting the ghouls in through the basement, thats another. This is for the third option of having both. 

Found them:

Tenpenny Ghouls at Peace - http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/7383

Ghouls Cohabitate - http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/10721

/befo

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I have an idea:

I have an idea:

There should be an Enclave faction thing. The reason wouldn't come into play until the end of FO3 and then into Broken Steel, but having a high reputation with the Enclave could be used to post game to negotiate peace. Think about it! While seeing all that death and destruction with Liberty Prime and then into Adams Airforce Base, peace is more challenging than war. The ability to convince Eden to destroy himself without wiping out Raven Rock, for Autumn to stand down. to get people like the Remnants analog to surrender or help form an American government would make a much better ending. This would really be talking the monster to death: The Enclave believe they are serving America while spitting on America's very ideals: so show them that. You are a Vault Dweller: you know about the history and ideals and spirit of America as any Enclaver.

You might also be able to use assets modified from Zeta and Anchorage. Imagine that Chase put those specific characters in Anchorage because he was preserving them in case the Apocalypse came. Then take those synthetic shells from the commonwealth, think Amitage at least and then download Sgt. Montgomery and Chase and Doc Amadi, and then modify Zeta so Torricreden's squad can live again/survive, even have Col. Hartigan survive by being disabled, but not instantly killed from the thaw. Then have all of them, who lived in America call out the Enclave bit by bit, showing them how heinous they've become. It should be hard, but it would represent a golden ending. It would make the storming Adams or even the Jefferson Memorial unnecessary. Destructive war replaced by a budding peace.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

One potential issue I see is Tenpenny Tower. Off the top of my head, I don't see any way to handle the ghouls without setting up two reputations. Then we need some way to toggle which one is displayed when you hover over tenpenny tower.

The easiest way is to have two map markers for Tenpenny Tower, one initially disabled and set to immediately display, one not.  You have the existing map marker associated with the Human Tenpenny faction and the disabled one associated with the Ghoul Tenpenny faction.  If and when the Tenpenny changeover happens you simply hide the one marker and enable the other.  The changeover CANNOT happen without the player having visited Tenpenny Towers first, meaning they will have the map marker already.  Swapping them will remove the existing map marker and seamlessly replace it with a new one at the same location, but with a different reputation attached.

Hell, if you set the initially disabled one to use the "real" map marker as an Enable Parent you can do all of that with one function call (TenPennyMapMarkerREF.disable).

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Underworld and Rivet City

Underworld and Rivet City should both definitely be promoted imho.

EDIT: oh dang, spoilers following:

 

 

 

 

The Enclave faction reputation idea sounds exciting! Bethesda would have done well to give the Enclave more dinamism in Fo3. I admit to being disappointed that Adams AFB was essentially vacated regardless of if the mobile platform was destroyed.

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Perhaps a few things one

Perhaps a few things one killing a faction leader causes the faction to be in chaos, maybe start a new optional objective in the fallout 3 main quest like sneaking past the enclave troops at the memorial to avoid harming them and giving autumn the purifier code instead (I volunteer for voice acting) of him killing you he offers you to join the enclave and you can reprogram eden back to his basic state and unleash the fev into the BOS water supply instead of the purifer or kill them up front, and make it possible to fail both BOS and Enclave main quests and have a indenpent route like in newvegas, this would require alot of re scripting to make a possible new quest but it would be better. thats the newvegas style of how fallout 3 would be like reputation is a whole other ball game

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JaxFirehart wrote:For the

JaxFirehart wrote:

For the enclave I intend to start the player as vilified with them and give no opportunities to improve that standing, which completely defeats the purpose of a reputation...

Are custom reputation ranks possible?

Since the Enclave is a special and questdriven case, can I suggest that the player gets a special unique reputation with them as soon as they hear one of the spambots ; but instead of "Idolised" or "Liked" it's called something like "Paternal" or "Protective", to show that unlike most faction reputations, the Enclave don't even know you exist, but still have an opinion on how to treat you anyway, since they claim to be a benevolent government that wants to protect all children of the wasteland.

Once they take Project Purity, this should change to vilified. Or maybe something uniquely Enclavish like "Unamerican"

 

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^ 'Communist'

^ 'Communist'

"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it"

TJ
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mutated.

Mutated, which is even worse to the Enclave.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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This is something I was

This is something I was thinking about too, since there are lots of quests (Mechanist/AntAgonist quest for canterburry, helping St. Monica's and the Capitol Pres. Society for Rivet city, etc) where you could implement a reputation system for a town/area.

As for the enclave, I'm agree with setting up a reputation system with them, mostly because it would allow disguises.

But considering they're essentially the bad guys throughout the series, I don't think there should be visible faction reputation that you could see on your pip-boy with them because that would suggest that your reputation with them could improve. All in all, even if you agree to help Eden (which the rest of the enclave won't actually know about), you are going to end up destroying them, and unlike other factions, *the Enclave isn't inherently neutral towards the player*. Your actions in the main quest line will put you in their sites and have them kill your dad. They were made to be the bad guys here.

Now, if like you suggested, someone were to add a mod to side with the enclave instead, then I could see your reputation with them becoming a visible stat.

Also, I'm gonna just pitch this idea right now:

Enclave disguise --> going up to mind-controlled deathclaws --> shutting down their control with the robotics expert perk.

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I think it's worth noting

I think it's worth noting that you are not required to do the main quest, so this whole Enclave=Bad Guys thing is not, in my mind, 100% applicable.

My main concern is the patroling eyebots. Are they in the same faction as the Enclave troops? That is, if you are vilified by the enclave, will the eyebots aggro on you?

Even if there was no way to gain positive rep with the enclave, negative rep could serve as an indicator of how big a nuisance they think you are.

Read before asking for help. Please. >>>>>> http://taleoftwowastelands.com/content/read-asking-help

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plumjuice wrote:

plumjuice wrote:

I think it's worth noting that you are not required to do the main quest, so this whole Enclave=Bad Guys thing is not, in my mind, 100% applicable.

My main concern is the patroling eyebots. Are they in the same faction as the Enclave troops? That is, if you are vilified by the enclave, will the eyebots aggro on you?

Even if there was no way to gain positive rep with the enclave, negative rep could serve as an indicator of how big a nuisance they think you are.

This, this makes a great deal of sense.  To be Villified means they notice you.  The Enclave doesn't hate the Lone Wanderer individually, they just hate everyone who isn't them.  In their own way they're neutral about the Lone Wanderer, at least at first.

Also, it would be very fitting from an "Enclave Logic" standpoint:

Goon 1: "Oh man, have you seen the latest security bulletin?  That brat from the Vault?"

Goon 2: "No.  What about 'em?"

Goon 1: "Been causing trouble for our patrols, for no good reason.  Hell, just last night they shot Steve in the leg!"

Goon 2: "Steve?  No, not Steve.  What was he doing?"

Goon 1: "NOTHING! I mean ol' Steve was minding his own business.  Then this Vault wackadoo comes up to him, so Steve starts talking to him.  In the head.  With a Laser Rifle.  You know, like training tells us."

Goon 2: "Right, right."

Goon 1: "And then this brat hauls off and shoots him!  Can you believe it!"

Goon 2: "Man, I really hate this Vault weirdo now."

*You have achieved Hated status with the Enclave.*

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Yeah I have since learned

Yeah I have since learned that a factions hostility status is not dependent on your reputation with them. It is entirely possible to make them hate you even if you are Idolized. So it would be no trouble to have you start out neutral and quickly become Villified. Either way, its all cosmetic.

And it's nice to see you around, Yuki.

TJ
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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

Yeah I have since learned that a factions hostility status is not dependent on your reputation with them. It is entirely possible to make them hate you even if you are Idolized. So it would be no trouble to have you start out neutral and quickly become Villified. Either way, its all cosmetic.

And it's nice to see you around, Yuki.

Yeah from my time messing with factions I can say the system works pretty much like it did in FO3 and the new Rep system is purely for looks.

And yes, another big welcome back to my friend Yuki.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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You know me, I can't stay

You know me, I can't stay away.  Especially not now that I've got YUP going on the Nexus.  Never thought I'd be the guy making the community bug fix compilation, and yet here I am.

So yeah, right now there's a flurry of activity with YUP, new patches, whatnot.  Once it settles down and it's stable I'll be working on those TTW mods I keep swearing I'm gonna do.

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JaxFirehart wrote:

JaxFirehart wrote:

I personally would love to set up an alternate story where you can side with the enclave (as a mod).

There is a mod called "Enclave Improvement Project". It provides a lore friendly (at least as lore friendly as this can possibly be) way for the LW to not only join the Enclave, but become their new Colonel and take over the CW one settlement at a time (the citadel, Megaton, etc.). It works up until a certain point, but then the scripts seem to be absent and the settlements won't become occupied. It is fixable because I talked with a guy who was able to fix it, but unfortunately I wasn't able to follow his instructions due to my limited modding experience. He said it was just a matter of copying and pasting the scripts into the right place. I have an entire thread of his instructions, if your interested I can post the thread or you can check it out for yourself. For modders of your caliber, this should be a cake walk, I'm guessing that finding the time would be the real problem.

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As far as Megaton Reputation

As far as Megaton Reputation goes, we have the leo stahl thing, the pipes, the survival guide, the bomb, and...I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  But in the repairing pipes, you get to sell scrap metal to walter, and he doesn't just put this in a damn cabinet for anything. He repairs the water system of the town with it. Each of these should improve the player's reputation with it. These could incur the gift scripts, discounts in the Brass Lantern Moriarty's, Moira's, and just let you feel accepted with the high karma dialogue.

 

There is something similiar to be said for Paradise Falls, wherein bringing in slaves gains reputation. Fixing Pronto's supply also gains reputation, however the Strictly Business challenge garners enough reputation gain in the town to get you to liked. And perhaps these increases in reputation equate to access to a higher tier of gift/tribute? liked reputation giving you access to the regular level, but Idolized gives you much higher quality loot/food/water/medical supplies.
 

Underworld could work similarly with Winthrop's Scrap deal, but a large amount of infamy would be gained by hiring Charon. You killed the vibe by killing the dealer for people. regardless of whether it was the right thing or not, the people in the bar react negatively.

Can reputation be gained in thresholds depending on how much caps are traded in transactions? I work my ass off to keep moira and Doc Church rolling in food, ammo, weapons, and perhaps a trust can be seen in this?

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Any updates on the status of
Any updates on the status of this?

Always bring a companion or two that is slower than you.
Because you don't need to out run a Deathclaw.
You just need to out run your companions (Just bring a lot of companions in case the Deathclaw is really hungry!).

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This thread contains the

This thread contains the ongoing discussion on this. That said, I'm closing this thread. Please continue discussion in that one.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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