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JaxFirehart
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Creatures

I am opening some things for general discussion, I want input from everyone who reads this on various topics listed below. The current goal is to recreate FO3 in the FNV engine while also integrating appropriate upgrades. The question is, what are the appropriate upgrades.

CREATURES
Should some FNV creatures be integrated into FO3.

Things to Consider:
Most of the unique creatures in the Mojave are the result of experiments at Big MT. The mojave is much closer to Big MT than DC is.
There is nothing stopping these creatures from migrating and the post-war climate is similar enough in both wastelands.
Nightkin are a product of the Master's army and would probably not make sense in DC.

My Conclusion:
I am against integrating creatures at the moment, but community input could change that. Some creatures like the Deathclaw Matriarch and Patriarch wouldn't be a problem.

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I'm for things like the

I'm for things like the deathclaw alpha and mother, misc. things like deathclaw eggs radscorpion eggs ant eggs, and even maybe small/medium/large in some cases like Mole Rat Pup, Baby Deathclaw, Yao Guai Cub to add variation.

Until I hear a compelling argument for now I'm against New Vegas creatures, even things like Giant Rats and Mantises. I get that in real D.C. there might actually be Mantises and Giant Rats but I just don't think it feels like Fallout 3 with them there.

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Forgot about the yao guai

Forgot about the yao guai pups and such definitely integrate them. I could maybe go for mantises and giant rats but I don't think so.

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I'm for all of the pups, dog,

I'm for all of the pups, dog, coyote, yau guai, Mole rat babies, the differnt sizes of Radscorpion and, all the eggs for them Deathclaws and, ants. I don't know about the boss level Deathclaws though it would feel off kind of like how a Supermutant Bohemouth would be out of place in New Vegas. 

As for Rats and, manitses I think it would be good to introduce them into FO3. It would make it feel more like FO1/2 for the dyehard people who have played all of the series. In the early Fallouts there were Rats, Mole Rats and, Pig Rats. Mantises were a random encounter but, they were still there. 

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Never played the first two

Never played the first two fallouts, I can't get into older games unless I have nostalgia from playing them in the past (not a complete graphics whore, but enough that it ruins stuff for me). If the rats and mantises were present in FO1/2 then I see no reason why we can't have them in FO3.

I see your point with the boss deathclaws, maybe as a random encounter or just leave the community to do ti if they feel like it.

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I think boss deathclaws

I think boss deathclaws should be in old olney and maybe the deathclaw sanctuary. I would make sense for atleast a mother in oldney since they over ran the town. While i'm a big fan of the old games and tactics, I think adding rats and matises wouldn't be good. The reason being that the old games are more or less in the mojave, the old games had komodo dragons for gods sake, imo the mantises shouldn't be added but maybe an argument could be made for rats I guess. Rats are everywhere.

edit: I also wanted to add i was not a big fan of the lake lurk in NV.

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I personally just think the

I personally just think the rats would feel out of place but, like you said, rats are everywhere so there is really no reason not to include them. Mantises are another thing that can actually be found in DC, but might not feel right. I'm with you on the deathclaws being in olney and the sanctuary only something that powerful shouldn't be random, like behemoths.

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A few things could be ported

There are one or two FNV creatures which would fit naturally into the Capital Wasteland, based on the approximate distribution of real-world animals:  Wild Dogs, Coyotes, Mantises, Rats and Giant Rats, and the "pup" versions of any of the existing CW animals.

The bigger question though is what do we gain by doing so?  Coyotes and Dogs would provide more sources of crafting items, Rats would be thematically appropriate but would need to be placed for maximum effect.  Mantises would also need to be placed.  Because of that, I'm not sure it's really worth the effort, at least given that it will alter the composition of the CW a little bit.

One thing that definitely needs to be addressed are Deathclaws and Radscorpions.  CW Deathclaws and Radscorpions are a lot weaker than their Mojave counterparts, and as it stands at the moment most players will get slaughtered by early-placed Deathclaws and Radscorpions if they aren't tweaked.  Radscorpions are a bit tricky, since small radscorpions are pathetically unthreatening, whereas medium ones are.  We'll probably need to make a special version of the CW Radscorpion to compensate.  As for Deathclaws, Young Deathclaws can be used, again with a possible adjustment to make them as threatening as the original CW versions.  We oculd also just make a special version there.  Either way, I think the CW versions need to be distinctly named, something like "Juvenile Radscorpion", that kind of thing, to make it clear that it's a different critter.

Now the small/young versions of other existing CW animals would make sense too, although again it would alter the environment a little bit.  I like to think it would be for the better, but htat might be just my opinion.

One thing I can say that we should do is keep the altered death item/carry item lists for critters.  Unless we want to complete suppress the NV crafting system in the CW, we need to keep those items, and those distributions.

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I am already keeping the

I am already keeping the changed death items. FalloutNV wins every conflict unless I have a pretty good reason why it shouldn't. As for deathclaws and radscorpions, I think we can alter most static placed deathclaws to be deathclaw young and we could make low level radscorpions instead be giant ants (maybe?). Just suggestions, I am onboard with almost everything you mentioned.

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Definitely not giant ants,

Definitely not giant ants, since that would change the feel.  Also, Giant Ants aren't much of a threat compared to even FO3 Radscorpions, unless they're the fire kind... which are limited to Grayditch.

Oh speaking of critters, there's a fix that should be made that will affect both games: the Fire Ant Queen's distro list in NV is messed up.  It's supposed to give out eggs AND nectar, but winds up only giving out one or the other.  Minor quibble, already done on my end, but I thought I should mention it.

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IMO, Mantises don't really

IMO, Mantises don't really fit the urban decay vibe of FO3. I can't be sure on this, but I don't think mantises would comfortably live in a place like the CW. They make sense in NV, what with actual vegetation for them to feed on. Rats? Yes, rats are common urban pests, are they not?  Coyotes are another one of those things that is a staple of the West. Wild dogs work well in FO though, IMO. A retexture of dogmeat would do better in the CW.

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Definitely for variations.

Definitely for variations. Adding entirely new creatures where appropriate seems harmless, though I would keep these changes in the Merged version.

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Rats, baby-versions, and

Rats, baby-versions, and variations of deathclaws are all good. Mantises I'd skip, unless they were recolored brown. Natural color, not as offensive as green.

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Dysthe wrote:

Dysthe wrote:

Rats, baby-versions, and variations of deathclaws are all good. Mantises I'd skip, unless they were recolored brown. Natural color, not as offensive as green.

I live in downtown Chicago we have coyote packs living downtown, Mantises and, other vermin. If they live in the Midwest they would live in D.C.  The Mantises are Green or can change color for camouflage but, we can't do that for the game. 

On to a more important question! What about Geckos? Geckos are found all across America too, There found in the Midwest, out east and especially in the west. 

It's ben brought to my attention that we have overlooked them in our discussions, How would people feel if they started to pop up in DC? 

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Virgina Herpetological

Virgina Herpetological Society says no on geckos. Mostly skinks, one glass lizard, one eastern fence lizard. Only one gecko, introduced species. (Mediterranean Gecko) There were some in zoos, but sadly Fallout doesn't have a mutated zoo. Would have loved to see National Zoo. 

Photo verification of both green and brown mantises in Washington. Just type mantises Washington DC into the old Google Images. I know they're there. My worry is that some of the users may not like them, because of the contrast against the wasteland coloring. Wasteland's not as vibrant as Vegas. Brown goes with bloatflies. You'd see the mantises for miles against that grey soil if they were green. I first thought of grey or white, but they're not so common in nature. Might agree better though with the users above.

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You have a point about the

You have a point about the color of the mantises!  I didn't think about that myself. Jax and, I have a lot to think about and, are trying to make a balanced game.

I could retexture the ones in DC easy enough but for now we think they should be included.  

Now that you bring it up I would love to do the national Zoo! I could get some of my friends to rig mutated creatures for it! could be fun but, not a part of TTW. A part of DCInt! 

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I'd say rats would need to be

I'd say rats would need to be retuxtured too, they'd need to be more of an oily brown or black to fit with the urban theme. The rats in New Vegas look like their name suggest Cave Rats. Like something out of the Flintstones. The Legion dogs would fit alright, maybe recolor them and rename them wolves or something and base them off the Coyotes.

I'd say the killer plants should definately go in. They would probably need to be specially placed more so than the coyotes and rats. But if someone is already going through placing harvest points, why not?

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Everyone keeps mentioning

Everyone keeps mentioning having wild dogs in DC... you people do know that wild dogs are ALREADY in DC right?

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Killer plants are found in

Killer plants are found in vault 22 because they were made there. And yeah Jax, wild dogs are in DC it saturated with them lol. I am beginning to think some people haven't played the games...........

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Killer plants have been

Killer plants have been around since fallout 2. the spore creatures exist because of vault 22. The fly traps are completely independant of that.

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Everyone apparently had

Everyone apparently had animal friend... Wild dogs grinned at them between the monument and the Lincoln Memorial.

There aren't a lot of green areas in Fallout 3, unless you're playing with certain mods. In fact, there aren't any working farms either. It's one of the things that might be added with harvestables on a merged game.

But I'd say no on the killer plants. The problem is Vault 22 is very far away, and the Capital Wasteland is a temperate, not desert or tropical climate. The inclusion of killer plants falls along the same lines as cacti. Unless you want to add a Wild Wasteland flavor to the old Fallout 3 game. In which case, I suggest either one of the raider farmsteads or off Oasis. More realistically, you could put killer plants in Point Lookout. Pick a puma fruit, get your hand bitten off. It is south of DC and more plants grow there. It's more green.

If lots of people really want killer plants, I certainly wouldn't protest if they were there.

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Yes there are dogs in FO3.

Yes there are dogs in FO3. Two kinds. Ones that look like Dogmeat that don't attack you, and Mangey ones that Attack. Why would it be such a negative thing to have bigger more agressive looking dogs, especially  as higher level raider companions?

As for the plants the first time they show up in the series is in Arroyo, which is up in Northern California/Oregon. 40 years before the events of New Vegas. I think it's safe to say that the plants are more resultant of post atomic radiation as opposed to a lab experiment.

You're right about the lack of plants and farming in Fallout 3, that is one of the biggest difference from New Vegas. None of the communities appear to be self sustaining. Rather it's questionable how some of them even exist, like Girdershade. You can tell a lot of the things in Fallout 3 were just kind of slapped down because they needed something for a quest done in that area. There's no flow to anything you do, as soon as you get into Megaton if you pick up any quests expect to be sent in opposit directions. It's just like that in Fallout 3, nothing is planned. You don't see things like the Coyote dens or any kind of sign of an eco system, a few people complain about the heat, but everyone dresses for Autumn weather.

I guess that's my biggest beef, more so than what creatures should be added. What should be done to make for a more consistant experiance between the two wastelands. The Capital Wasteland is really horribly undevelouped outside of the more Urban Areas. Especially because at any rate, the scorpions don't really fit with the DC area either but they were shoehorned in there anyways because they're an iconic Fallout monster.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_house_gecko#Geographic_distri...

Apparently you get Geckos in maryland, so they'd be at home in the swamps of Point lookout. They look like a gecko and an alligator had a baby anyway, so perhaps they'll do as a substitute for the 'gators that DLC sorely lacked. Some mutant plants and amphibians would really make the place seem more 'swamp' and less 'foggy trees'.

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Actually... I'm living here

Actually... I'm living here on the east coast and there is a coyote den in my neighborhood... in the middle of the city. I think coyotes should be in CW... maybe not as common, but they fit.

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What about working for trying

What about working for trying to get some of Mart's Mutant Mod creatures in Fallout 3? It's a popular enough FO3 mod, and doesn't break the lore.. much.

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I would prefer if there were

I would prefer if there were no modded creatures, personally. I haven't really seen any that weren't wild graphical departures from the base beastiary, or completely out of place mash ups. I realize they're popular but so are all the latex bikini mods and oily skin whore make-up. I'd prefer those weren't in either.

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There is one creature in the

There is one creature in the Monster Mod that might be useful -- the Bighorn calves. Otherwise, there are varying degrees of lore-friendliness. Really plain looking animals like the boar or some of the insects (non-huge ones) could be integrated. Possibly a few of the two headed varieties (ie. mutated-mutated nightstalker). A little further down the road, but still within the realm of possibility is the FEV horrors/larvae, placed within very specific locations, ie. vault with the geck.

But honestly, it's a lot of work to pick and choose.

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I personally believe that its

I personally believe that its a lot of effort just for a small change, I think the mantises as others have said would need to be retextured as they are far too colorful to fit into DC, the same with Geckos and giant rats. However I think having some creatures such as Yao Guio in Fallout New Vegas would work but anything else would be unrealistic but thats just my opinion!

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Personally I don't think any

Personally I don't think any creatures should be added from wasteland to wasteland except maybe for some NV Deathclaw variants in the CW Sanctuary, and perhaps the occasional coyote pack. It makes them more distinct from each other if they have unique wildlife.

As for the beefing-up deathclaws and radscorpions got in FNV, I think that change should be carried over to the CW. I always got the impression human beings were barely surviving and no longer top of the food chain in the CW (which explains why none of the settlements have done bugger-all in regards to rebuilding civilisation) So if the player occasionally has to retreat or avoid a CW area it can only add to the difference in atmosphere and the status of Mankind between the two wastelands. Besides, we're all experienced players or we wouldn't be bothering with mods like TTW. We're not going to cry that the game is broken and ragequit because we can't kill Deathclaws at level 1 with a 10mm pistol anymore.

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Damn think of the ammo that

Damn think of the ammo that would take.

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Anyone who ragequits after

Anyone who ragequits after not being able to kill a Deathclaw with a 10mm at ANY level is playing the wrong game.

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Deathclaws variations would

Deathclaw: variations would fit well in the wasteland, Blind deathclaws spawning in Old Olney underground and sewers as well as various caves, Deathclaw mothers and babies being exclusively located in deathclaw mating areas, Deathclaw young spawning by deathclaw mothers and at lower levels in the wasteland, Deathclaw alpha males roaming the wasteland at higher levels.

Yao guai: cubs and giant variations would also fit well in the wasteland, Cubs spawning at earlier levels in the wasteland as well as in caves, Giant yao guai roaming the wasteland at higher levels.

Coyotes: have no argument against them and perhaps should be a more common then wild dog encounters.

Rats: are everywhere should spawn in places you would usually find molerats.

Ravens: If they could survive in the mojave, Chances are they survived or migrated to the Capital wasteland.

Fish: The water in the capital wasteland is connected to the ocean but the water might have proven to be too irradiated to host life for anything other then the mirelurks.

Bark scorpions: would only fit as a smaller variation of the currently existing radscorpions, Since they are based off a species native to the Mojave.

Giant mantises: would not fit due to West tek research facility and Vault 22 with the F.E.V. strain the mutated them is on the other side of the country, They could only fit as renamed nymphs inside and around the Oasis and even that is pushing it.

Geckos: would not fit at all anywhere around the Capital wasteland as the West tek research facility with the F.E.V. strain that mutated them is on the other side of the country.

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I think in principle, these

I think in principle, these questions should be handled by environmental packages. If you want the vanilla loadout, then anything other than the nightstalkers and a cazadores go in. If you're like me, and refuse to play with anything but fully green mods, then you're stuck screaming for real world animals, as many as can fit.

I'm generally against this whole notion of asking 'what purpose do adding animals serve to the character?' That's irrelevant. We're trying to pin down to a reasonable degree, the ecology of the Columbia Commonwealth, and weather they serve any purpose to the player or character is irrelevant, because nature isn't driven by human utility.

And for the record, I wouldn't mind cazadores in the CW, maybe a horror saved for the the Pitt. Either way, they would go a long way to explaining the lack of rebuilding.

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On non mentioned creature

On non mentioned creature integration I would like to see:

Factory Protectrons (The Pitt) in factories of both wastelands, potentially replacing the original protectrons.

Medical & Repair Eyebots (Lonesome Road) as Enclave Eyebots in the capital Wasteland.

And even if they are a tad lorebreaking, because they are servants of the Master originally I don't think it would be bad to have Nightkin in the Capital Wasteland.

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I realize this thread is old

I realize this thread is old but has any NV creatures actually been integrated into FO 3?

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we changed them all into hot

we changed them all into hot air balloons.

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Puppettron wrote:

I am curious about this myself. With all the monster mods running rampant in my game I can barely tell what comes from where.

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we didn't move anything from

we didn't move anything from fnv to fo3.  we're ecologically minded modders.

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Yeah, we don't want another

Yeah, we don't want another Cane Toad or Rabbit incident like in Australia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species_in_Australia

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I think coyotes should be

I think coyotes should be moved to DC, personally. They live there in real life, and even wander into downtown sometimes. I mean, part of TTW is integrating vegas stuff into DC, right?

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There are a few creatures

There are a few creatures that we can move over, just not many and its low priority

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EnderDragonFire wrote:

EnderDragonFire wrote:

 

I think coyotes should be moved to DC, personally. They live there in real life, and even wander into downtown sometimes.

Do you even East coast? Are you sure you're living in MD/VA?

We have too many deer. There aren't any apex predators like coyote about. 

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Do I even east coast? Indeed.

Do I even east coast? Indeed. Kentucky born and raised, and spent many years living in Virginia and North Carolina. They are native to the DC region, just check out Rock Creek parks website...

http://www.nps.gov/rocr/naturescience/coyotefaq.htm

...and the Wikipedia article about eastern coyotes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_coyote

You might not see them very often, but they are around, and can become a nuisance for farmers. They steal goats and chickens from local farms all of the time.

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After reviewing the animals

After reviewing the animals the only thing I feel would help out is just balancing the variety between the two wastelands. The animals that fit both are already in both for the most part, the insects could include increases just because they are insects (my meaning being they are everywhere in large quantities and varieties, 'gods favorite animal') and the mantis could easily fit into the DC, with the color changes as noted. I noticed that there were greater varieties of the same types of animals in NV compared to DC. 

Details:                                                                                                                                                                        -No Fire ants in Vegas, I thought they should be a Grayditch Exlusive do to the scientists experiments. Unless 

-Geckos could be okay in DC as well, keep in mind pet owners, the crested gecko is very popular and it does somewhat resemble the geckos in NV.

-Mirelurk in NV could also work, perhaps as a replacement to the Lakelurk. If Nuka-Cola is integrated into NV perhaps one could also include the NukaLurk. This would seem to have no good effect with a decent amount of work and not optimal IMHO.

-I like coyotes in both, it is a good idea

- I actually think that Yao Guai don't really fit NV unless they are only found in some areas, perhaps they already are but they should be located in areas that includes mountainous areas and foothills of Lake Tahoe, the sierra Nevada mountains and nearby mountain ranges in extreme western Nevada, as this is where they are normally found.

-Increased variety of Deathclaws in DC based on Deathclaws in NV

-No nightkin in DC, I know many agree but just wanted to put my vote out there.

-Water Brahmin in DC

-Add rats to DC, color changed to fit, however only to be found in the DC ruins not anywhere else.

-Bark scorpions in DC make most sense as they appear most like the only species found in Virginia (http://www.insectidentification.org/insect-description.asp?identificatio...), whereas NV would be home to a much greater variety simply due to the large number of varieties found in the Nevada, California region.

-Molerats/Rats locations, I feel molerats should be found outside urban areas and rats inside urban areas

-How long has Gary been cloned, could any of the Gary's be found in NV, just for fun I tossed this in.

What are thoughts on this, I would be happy to discuss in order to assist the process in becoming finalized as to what makes best sense. Cheers!