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JaxFirehart
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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: Armor

I am opening some things for general discussion, I want input from everyone who reads this on various topics listed below. The current goal is to recreate FO3 in the FNV engine while also integrating appropriate upgrades. The question is, what are the appropriate upgrades.

ARMOR
Should certain, appropriate, clothing and armor from NV be integrated into FO3.

Things to consider:
Obviously stuff like NCR outfits and armors would be out of place.
Things like the Combat Armor Mk2 and the Reinforced Metal Armor could make sense if placed in FO3.
FO3 NPCs are going to take major rebalancing no matter what. The DT system ensures that.

My Conclusion:
I am middle of the road on this one, I favor introducing new armors in slowly and carefully.

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Edited by: JaxFirehart on 09/12/2012 - 16:15
dandys
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I'm for the reinforced armors

I'm for the reinforced armors, it adds variety. I definitely don't want fallout 3 enclave armors in New Vegas. One thing to consider T-51b, it's no longer a one/two-per-game armor in NV like it was in Fallout 3, should we upgrade BoS accordingly?

I don't think NPC clothing like republican outfits and cowboy hats would make sense, or gambler outfits, I like the difference between games.

NV Slave clothing yeah that might be all right for Fallout 3 slaves.

I'm sure I didn't touch on everything...

JaxFirehart
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I'm with you on all counts.

I'm with you on all counts. Personally, I would like to upgrade the Brotherhood, them having T-51bs just makes sense to me. If we do that we need to upgrade the T-51bs that we get as quest rewards. We need to start brainstorming how to upgrade them. Haven't looked at the slave clothing, I'm sure it will work in either wasteland.

steviestevens
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I think giving BoS better

I think giving BoS better armor should only apply to named BoS npc or maybe even just the Lyon's Pride. the whole thing with the old armor is that they found it in the pentagon. The only problem I see is maybe having to do some kind of retex for outcasts because I doubt they would disband from Lyons and not take their armor with them.

JaxFirehart
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Well you make a good point

Well you make a good point about outcast themed T51bs. If we need to, I think chuck might be able to do retextures, I know he is good with photoshop. If we only give T51bs to named BoS that would definitely be the easy way out. I read up on the wikipedia about the citadel, it says "its sub-levels remained intact and contained enough pre-war technology and weaponry to keep Brotherhood forces going indefinitely." No source was listed but that implies that the pentagon was well stocked and it would actually make sense to stock the pentagon with the most up-to-date technologe.

yukichigai
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The only substitution I would

The only substitution I would recommend making is Leather Armor for Leather Armor, Reinforced in the CW, since NV Leather Armor is significantly weaker than the FO3 version.  Leather Armor, Reinforced has roughly the same level of protection as the FO3 Leather Armor.

The rest I would say should absolutely NOT be included in the Capital Wasteland, at least as part of the base mod.  With so much variety (and varying levels of protection) it would dramatically alter gameplay balance.

Oh yes, another note: Raider Armor in the CW needs to be improved significantly.  Right now Raiders are pathetically easy to kill, compared to their original FO3 incarnations.  Something with an 8DT at least

JaxFirehart
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yukichigai wrote:

yukichigai wrote:

The only substitution I would recommend making is Leather Armor for Leather Armor, Reinforced in the CW, since NV Leather Armor is significantly weaker than the FO3 version.  Leather Armor, Reinforced has roughly the same level of protection as the FO3 Leather Armor.

You seem to be against any form of integration I've noticed. I did most of the balance changes in the last iteration of TTW, which had almost full integration, and it seemed to come together perfectly. The only people that even got the reinforced armors were merchants because almost every group of enemies was assigned a specific type of armor (Raiders used raider armor, talon company used talon combat armor etc).

yukichigai wrote:

Oh yes, another note: Raider Armor in the CW needs to be improved significantly.  Right now Raiders are pathetically easy to kill, compared to their original FO3 incarnations.  Something with an 8DT at least

Any changes made to the raider armor would also change the FNV stuff, and that is not something I ever intend to do without having dire need to do so. We could create special dc raider armor, but this creates more unique fomids, more unique formids ruins mod compatibility; and it begs the question: why are DC raiders so much tougher than fiends? That said, I don't remember raiders being that hard to kill in FO3 and I'm not a power gamer, cheater or exploiter. I think I might need to go back and play FO3 anew and get a fresh impression.

steviestevens
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The raiders weren't ever that

The raiders weren't ever that hard unless u had to go against a bunch of them, plus how tough do they really need to be? Fiends arent tough neither are jackals, vipers, ect. I dont see a need to change raider armor or leather armor. Whatever the armor setup was in the initial TTW was fine imo, let's just stick to that. Things like weapons and creatures are one thing but we dont need to make things like armor more complicated than they nee to be, atleast not from the get go.

dandys
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<p>I have to say I don&#39;t

I have to say I don't think that raising the DT on raider armor is the solution to making them more difficult. Raiders use armor in relatively poor condition so the difference between 4 and 6 DT or whatever when condition is factored in may be 1 DT or less What may be able to make them harder is a health boost? I don't know if we'd do that though.
I get why reinforced leather armor would be good in the capital wasteland from a balance perspective, but I don't think it'd fit with the feel of the game. Like you'd think why does everyone have reinforced and no one has regular? A possible solution might be to bridge the gap a little and beef up regular leather armor (for instance if regular is 6 DT and reinforced is 10 making regular 7-8 and a little more expensive).

JaxFirehart
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I like the idea to beef up

I like the idea to beef up their health, I also want to try to give them some better weapons to make them a bit more threatening. I am very against tweaking anything that was found in the standard FNV, so I would rather not alter leather armor at all. What about making it appear in better condition? That would give it a DT boost without actually having to alter the armor.

Darkersun
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I would love to see some more

I would love to see some more diversity within the Factions:

Slavers, Mercs, Caravans, Talon Company, Regulators:

- Combat Armor MK I & II

- Leather Armor & Reinforced Leather

Brotherhood & Outscasts

- T-51 varients

Enclave

- T-51 (fallout wiki stated that  Enclave uses T-51 too. Maybe with a retex)

Maybe integration of DLC items into the maingame (they are requiered anyway right ?)

Everthing that the Fallout lore supports would be nice I think.

Thanks for all the amazing work.

 

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

steviestevens
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Talon company and regulators
Talon company and regulators have a uniform they have to wear changing that would be dumb. I also think that while it would be sensible to give the brotherhood the T-51b it would ruin the Fallout 3 atmosphere, I thought it was lame that the T-45a was in NV. It said in the game they found a cache of old T-45a and some tech in the pentagon, that's why they sent up a base there. I'm pretty sure that armor is only supposed to come from there (I could be wrong, but that armor wasn't in FO1&2). It was made to set it apart from the other fallouts. However it would make some sense to have at least a few sets of T-51b around cause they would have worn that when they traveled from the west coast.
Darkersun
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About the Brotherhood Armors,

About the Brotherhood Armors, I find the lore in the fallout wiki interesting:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_(Capital_Wasteland)

BOS had/have:

- T-51b mostly replaced by T-45d (but not all, only the damged ones)

- T-45d before they arrived in the citadel (at least The Pitt DLC sugestted that, but this could be a design error)

- Brotherhood Combat Armor (mostly replaced by T-45d, because they found allot of them)

- same goes for Outcasts

For the Enclave I thought I read that they using T-51b to, but I cannot find it anywhere.

I think an important part is, that in Fallout all ressources are limited and nobody would toss away techonolgie from the past.

Regards,

Darkersun

- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

darthbdaman
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Base mod vs. Merged Mod. Base

Base mod vs. Merged Mod. Base mod should not add any armors, while the merged version could add armors where applicable, for people who don't want to have an incredibly vanilla FO3.

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For either version, I would

For either version, I would go with whatever the lore permits.

I would personally like to see (a little) more variety in clothing in FO3, especially around the Tenpenny Tower residents, however, the added clothing has terrible names (Gambler's this, Gambler's that) and there's a risk of string-tie man suits. I don't know if that's worth the risk.

I would not add diversity using FNV elements for DC factions that have a uniform (regulators, talon). However, I might add Brotherhood and Outcast variants where appropriate. Combat armor mk 2 might be a little too beige for inclusion, might require a retex. Although, I suppose it could be used for Enclave foot soldiers. There was already metal armor in FO3, including reinforced isn't going to kill us all. 

And obviously, where there are duplicates, kill the FO3 and replace with the NV version. Or add it for variety, if the meshes/textures are different enough. Unless, it's really, really obvious the New Vegas armor came from a desert.

sesom
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About mesh quality:

About mesh quality:

I don't want to say anything about lore in this discussion. But there is a point which I think is pretty important.

Most of the Obsidian armors are poorly done (meshes: extreme low poly, bad weight paint, wrong sorted NIF Blocks, ...; textures: low quality, nearly nonexisting or wrong normal map) compared to the Bethesda ones. This is one of the reasons why the engine has to work so hard to get them on screen and why Obsidian made "special" versions for the end fight (which could have been easily avoided if they had it done correctly the first time). I fear that this could be a potential can of worms for stability in the FO3 part.

chucksteel
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Sesom, 

Sesom, 

You know how much I respect you and, that I know your a proper modder. If you would want to take on the task of fixing some of the issues you've brought up it would be most appreciated. 

Of course don't kill yourself do what you can and we will integrate your changes into the main game. 

Please feel free to PM me with how much or how little of this you want to take on. No pressure I have things on my plate both in RL and here as do you! 

Worst case is that we will make dew with what we have to work with. 

chuck

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You're right, sesom. I hadn't

You're right, sesom. I hadn't checked, just assumed the newer version would be better...

 Apparently not. Opening armor up in Blender is terrifying.

sesom
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It's not so hard as soon as

It's not so hard as soon as you learned the basics. Working on a very special set of armor at the moment ;).

It's no big deal if NV armors & clothing are added to the CW in ttw. I go through them and correct Obsidians errors. I already did a lot of the necessary fixes for the armorfix file of Breeze's body. So the male side is already almost done.

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I'm all for integrating stuff

I'm all for integrating stuff of both wastelands, I think it makes it feel more like one game instead of two different games playing alternatively.

In addition I think some dlc armors would be a good addition.

The chinese stealth suit (from operation anchorage, or the ones from hover damn) could be added to chinese remnants across DC

The Pitt adds several raider armors, which in my opinion look great and add variety to the raiders, who are a really frequent enemies, so variety for them is great.

The Workman coveralls (point lookout) should be available in both wastelands, maybe something that wastelanders would wear.

The Riot Gear (lonesome road) seems like something that could be worn at DC too.

I don't think there are many Outcasts scribes around, but if there are the scribe tunic from Operation Anchorage would probably be a good fit.