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GrantSP
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I must have missed it but

I must have missed it but where was said that ammo is the deciding factor. I'm pretty sure it was based on the actual size of the weapon, ie. if it takes two hands to hold. (Some leeway of course for special cases.)

darthbdaman
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Assault rifles take 2 hands
Assault rifles take 2 hands to hold. It's about weight, size, power, etc. There is no defined criterion. It's probably bigger than a bread box though
Lyndi
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I can see why the Gauss Rifle

I can see why the Gauss Rifle might be considered in Big Guns as it's basically the energy weapons counterpart of the AMR in terms of damage and usage. Since the Gauss only requires a strength of 5 I personally don't think it should be included.

With explosive weapons moved to Big Guns will weapons like the missile launcher and grenade machinegun still receive bonuses from Perks like Demolition Expert, Splash Damage, and Heave Ho? Obviously the perks would have to be changed to include these weapons as the perk currently targets the Explosives class and not individual weapons but would the current perks just be altered or would new perks be created?

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AFAIK, the word 'Gauss' in

AFAIK, the word 'Gauss' in gauss guns refers to gaussian curve (named after Carl Friedrich Gauss) - Basically this means a weapon that shoots ferrous projectiles via accelerating them with a series of precisely timed electromagnetic pulses - a pulsed magnetic field effect pushes a ferrous slug up to very high velocities. There are several possible different designs of gauss guns - 'Coil guns' use series of coils around a barrel and 'Railguns' use electromagnetic rails. Although coil gun tech is usually considered more practical for smaller weapons and railgun tech more practical for larger weapons (like modern day huge ship mounted railguns), it would still be entirely possible to have a small railgun or a big coil gun.

Fallout 3/FNV Gauss Rifle is a very high powered single shot sniper weapon. Based on the looks and weapon description info, it is a coil gun. It fires 2mm slugs, but uses such insane amounts of energy per shot that it actually eats up microfusion cells at a rapid rate, where the weight and cost of tiny 2mm projectile is insignificant compared to the cost and weight of Microfusion cells drained. This is why in the game this gun uses Microfusion Cells and not 2mm EC.. Based on all this, F3/FNV Gauss Rifle most definitely counts as a Big Gun type weapon, IMHO.

(M72 Gauss Rifle from Fallout 2 is also a coil gun, but it is more like a semi-auto assault rifle. Lower powered, higher rate of fire, same projectile type (2mm EC) - Uses up a lot less energy per shot so the actual 2mm slugs are used as it's ammo in the game. Functionally it is much like a conventional rifle with flatter trajectory, this is a Small Gun in the game, as it should be IMHO.)

 

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I like Roy's idea of

I like Roy's idea of classifying guns by how they are held. If it sits on the shoulder (like the rocket launcher), or it is slung underhand (like the minigun), it's a Big Gun. That SHOULD be the criteria, at least in my opinion.

@Decker, no, a rail gun does not "push" a projectile in the manner suggested. An electric potential is applied to one rail, and a different potential to the opposite rail. When a conductive projectile is laid across both rails, current flows through it, and that flow of current creates a turning force on the projectile, making it roll in one direction. The higher the current, the stronger the turning force, and the faster the projectile rolls. Make the rails long enough and the current high enough, the projectile can reach great speeds. Hence the name, "rail" gun.

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Metal Storm Limited has the

Metal Storm Limited has the closest (IMO) to a hand held "rail" Gun. This video is of a defensive gun but they've also made pistols.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso

Sorry that was off topic. 

Personally I think any gun that is over 15 pounds would be "Big Guns" OR if it requires more "specialized" training which I think the Gauss would qualify

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

EnderDragonFire
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@Lyndi: The "Annabelle"

@Lyndi: The "Annabelle" rocket launcher has a strength requirement of 5, and it's going to be a Big Gun

@Paragon's Keep: The Recharger Rifle has 16 weight. If it become a "Big Gun" that would be insane. It is held like a Rifle, and functions like a weaker Laser Rifle with infinite ammo. 

So, having said both of those things, I think he criteria should be the GRIP. Ammo doesn't work, weight doesn't work, strenght  doesn't work, but grip would work. All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

Lyndi
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EnderDragonFire wrote:

EnderDragonFire wrote:

 

@Lyndi: The "Annabelle" rocket launcher has a strength requirement of 5, and it's going to be a Big Gun

@Paragon's Keep: The Recharger Rifle has 16 weight. If it become a "Big Gun" that would be insane. It is held like a Rifle, and functions like a weaker Laser Rifle with infinite ammo. 

So, having said both of those things, I think he criteria should be the GRIP. Ammo doesn't work, weight doesn't work, strenght  doesn't work, but grip would work. All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion. 

By your reasoning the AMR shouldn't be a Big Gun then either as it's handled like a rifle.

My point was that the AMR was being considered because it was a heavy two-handed rifle while the Gauss seems to be in this discussion based on damage alone. It's handled just like the AMR only it's not nearly as heavy (in terms of strength requirements to use properly as well as the physical weight value of the item in game.)

Either way I'm more interested in how the perks will work for the new skill, but it seems this thread has morphed into something way off-topic where people are trying to argue over how a fake gun in a video game works rather than try to help the TTW guys and gals balance the new skill.

jlf65
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The AMR SHOULDN'T be a big

The AMR SHOULDN'T be a big gun. Yes, it is big, but size/weight isn't what makes a big gun - as EnderDragonFire says, it's the grip. "Small" guns aren't limited to SMALL guns - it goes right up to the sniper rifle in FO3, so I don't see why a slightly larger .50 cal rifle would be any different.

Lyndi
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jlf65 wrote:

jlf65 wrote:

 

The AMR SHOULDN'T be a big gun. Yes, it is big, but size/weight isn't what makes a big gun - as EnderDragonFire says, it's the grip. "Small" guns aren't limited to SMALL guns - it goes right up to the sniper rifle in FO3, so I don't see why a slightly larger .50 cal rifle would be any different.

If it's grip only then the LMG, Bozar, Automatic rifle, and 25mm Grenade APW shouldn't be Big Guns either since they all share the same grip in the GECK with things like the AMR and Assault Carbine. I don't think anyone would argue with the Grenade Rifle being included as a Big Gun.

I think the basis of Roy's list was weapons that met more than one criteria. They were weapons that were classified as TwoHandHandle, TwoHandLauncher, or they were TwoHandAutomatic style weapons that had ammunition that was already considered explosive (the grenade rifle,) or were high strength/high weight weapons that were awkward to use regardless of grip style (the AMR, Bozar, LMG, and Automatic Rifle.)

The Gauss doesn't fit in with any of those criteria. Probably why he left it out in the first place. The only reason I could see it being included was for balance reasons. If the high damage scoped rifle was taken out of small guns then the high damage scoped rifle should be removed from energy weapons too. The high damage output of the Gauss is the only thing that could logically qualify it as a Big Gun as it isn't heavy, it isn't large, and it doesn't use an ammo type like missiles or grenades that would make it an obvious inclusion.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I don't care which way these weapons go in terms of skill requirements. I just like to try and get all possible views out there for the developers to consider. I suspect Roy has already considered a lot of this when he made his original list though.

 

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Sorry if this all went a bit

Sorry if this all went a bit offtopic.. Out of all the fake guns, gauss guns are some of the more reasonable future predictions - Tech demonstrators already exist, just not at the Fallout performance levels in man portable form.

@Lyndi: I think you underlined the issue very well - If it is grip only lots of machineguns would also fall off the list of big guns. I think that several variables like grip, size, damage, ammo usage, balancing and the feel of the weapon ingame should also matter. Gauss Rifle and AMR are indeed cases quite close to the borderline here, propably.. The scoped F3/FNV Gauss Rifle obviously is the energy version of the antimateriel rifle, so logic would suggest that if AMR indeed is classed as a Big Gun, so should be the Gauss Rifle. It is all a matter of where the line is drawn between regular guns/energy weapons and big guns.

@paragonskeep: Real life Metal Storm weapons are not gauss guns, they are electrothermal guns which use chemical propellant ignited by electric current. Metal Storm barrel is loaded with a line of bullets with propellant layers between them - Bullets are fired out in a rapid sequence, one at a time. Once a metal storm gun is empty, it is reloaded by replacing the barrel(s) with full ones.

@jlf65: Yes, my brief description of gauss guns applies best to coil guns, which is the type used in Fallout games. In any case, a railgun also uses electromagnetic fields and induction currents albeit with a different design to cause a resulting force vector on the projectile armature which pushes it out at a very high velocity.. Let's rephrase this even shorter; Electric energy goes into the gauss weapon system, a ferrous projectile flies out at a very fast speed. Can't go wrong with this, I hope.. ;)

 

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I went not only with

I went not only with animation type, although that is a main criteria, I also looked at previous games and why something would be considered a big gun. Additionally I wanted some kind of balanced spread between skill requirements so there is something at every level, and also weapons of each skill type. The main problem seems to be taking away weapons from skill type when there aren't a whole lot to begin with. Where as I would like to take more from the Guns category as it is the most populated, there just aren't enough there to warrant that unlike say... Fallout: Tactics where there is an abundance of heavy ballistic weaponry.

That said I think many mods, and one I would plan to make down the road would fill out the categories nicely for all the skills. That's the thing too, I'm always planning for the future, and also taking into account existing mods like WMX (the M2), 20th Century Weapons (tons) and CFW (minguns, M2, M249 etc). Moreover as I gain skill in modeling I want to create my own Classic Weapons mod which has *all* previous games (except the game that doesn't exist) weapons in it and Big Guns is a large part of that. Also the more I watch Ian McCullum on YouTube the more I become interested in these fire arms he covers and I would like to make my own weapon pack based upon weapons from the 1890s through the 1970s.

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@Roy,

@Roy,

Regardless of personal opinion and debates I trust your judgment in this. I am greatly looking forward to the updates. 

@Decker never said Metal Storm was "Gauss" said it was closest to a hand held "Rail Gun" :)

 

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

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I would vote no, but I trust

I would vote no, but I trust Roy Batty's judgement on this. I think an optional .esp is a good way to go.

 

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Lyndi wrote:

Lyndi wrote:

 

EnderDragonFire wrote:

 

@Lyndi: The "Annabelle" rocket launcher has a strength requirement of 5, and it's going to be a Big Gun

@Paragon's Keep: The Recharger Rifle has 16 weight. If it become a "Big Gun" that would be insane. It is held like a Rifle, and functions like a weaker Laser Rifle with infinite ammo. 

So, having said both of those things, I think he criteria should be the GRIP. Ammo doesn't work, weight doesn't work, strenght  doesn't work, but grip would work. All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion. 

 

By your reasoning the AMR shouldn't be a Big Gun then either as it's handled like a rifle.

My point was that the AMR was being considered because it was a heavy two-handed rifle while the Gauss seems to be in this discussion based on damage alone. It's handled just like the AMR only it's not nearly as heavy (in terms of strength requirements to use properly as well as the physical weight value of the item in game.)

Either way I'm more interested in how the perks will work for the new skill, but it seems this thread has morphed into something way off-topic where people are trying to argue over how a fake gun in a video game works rather than try to help the TTW guys and gals balance the new skill.

I AM trying to help them balance this skill, actually! Whether or not the Gauss rifle goes in Big Guns is a major question. You can't balance a skill until you decide which weapons it affects. 

Also, please note that my comment specifically states " All the shoulder mounted or underhand weapons are definitely big guns, while only a few others are being considered for inclusion."

I think the underlined portion addresses the AMR. I origionally *didn't* want the AMR to be a Big Gun, but I have conceded to Roy's judgment on the matter. However, I think that if the AMR is one, the Gauss should be too. The play the exact same role in their respective skills, as heavy duty end game sniper rifles. If you take away the small guns version, but not the Energy Weapons version, you will be making Energy Weapons the objectively better choice for snipers. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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On second thought, will a

On second thought, will a sniper build character (small guns OR energy) have a clear progression of weapons, of AMR and Gauss is moved to Big Guns?

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@Damianwolff: I think small

@Damianwolff: I think small guns would still be just fine for sniper character progression, if only because there are so many conventional guns to choose from, DKS-501 Sniper Rifle .308 (skill 75) and Marksman Carbine 5.56x45mm (skill 100) being the best small guns sniper weapons in the game after AMR migrates to Big Guns.

Energy weapons are a bit different story, less weapons to choose from - AER9 Laser Rifle w. scope (skill 25) remains the only really practical energy sniper weapon after the Gauss Rifle goes to Big Guns. I mean, sure you can have a scope on Plasma Defender (skill 50), but plasma weapons are by definition mid to short range weapons so I would not call that a sniper weapon really.. Of note is also that the scoped laser rifle does work even in late game kinda ok, especially if one uses Maximum Charge ammo for it - Zapped quite a few cazadores that way in some of my playthroughs.

 

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I'm not putting the Gauss

I'm not putting the Gauss rifle into Big Guns.

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But your putting the amr in?
But you're putting the AMR in? That seems really inadvisable, unless you plan on moving all the energy weapons out of big guns
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Been meaning to chime in here

Been meaning to chime in here for awhile now, but I concur with darthbdaman about the AMR. All along I've been thoroughly happy with the idea of big guns return/overhaul, but after deliberation have been convinced of the value of leaving the AMR/Gauss in guns/energy. Whatever you do, I'm competent enough to tweak things on my end to my hearts content; but if you want my 2¢, that's it.

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The only inclusion that I

The only inclusion that I question based on the OP list is the BOZAR. 

I can see the argument on both sides for the AMR and Gauss. I'm all for both to be guns/energy honestly, but that's because I use them and don't play big guns :)

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

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Mechanically, the Bozar

Mechanically, the Bozar totally makes sense as a "Big" gun. As far as "justifying" it thematically, I think of it this way: the AMR/Gauss are the the biggest small guns, and the Bozar is one of the smallest big guns. The AMR weighs between 20-13lbs, the Bozar weighs 15, so I don't think that's a radical interpretation.

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I concur with Darth too, but

I concur with Darth too, but Roy sounds... really adamant. I don't think I've ever seen him take such a strong stance on a suggestion from the community before! You don't mind sharing your reasoning, do you Roy? I am sure you have a good reason to be against it, but its not apparent to me. Are you just trying to follow the way Fallout 3 has it?

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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EnderDragonFire wrote:I
EnderDragonFire wrote:

I concur with Darth too, but Roy sounds... really adamant. I don't think I've ever seen him take such a strong stance on a suggestion from the community before!

You haven't been around here very long then :)
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Fair enough. I've only been

Fair enough. I've only been around since 2k14, which is less than many people around here, but more than some. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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I pulled enough energy

I pulled enough energy weapons out of that skill for Big Guns, and it's not really a big gun, it's as stated before a sniper rifle. It's a combination of factors which are: animation group, size, weight, ammo, strength req, previous games classification, feel. It doesn't meet enough of these criteria, so I won't include it as a big gun.

The AMR is a big gun, regardless how the game treats it with the grip. It shoots the largest ballistic round in the game.

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The AMR is also a sniper
The AMR is also a sniper rifle. This really shows the inherent problem with big guns though, subjectivity.
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OK let me be more clear then.

OK let me be more clear then. The AMR is an anti-tank rifle.

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RoyBatty wrote:OK let me be

RoyBatty wrote:

OK let me be more clear then. The AMR is an anti-tank rifle.

Oh, so you multiplied the damage rating by ten? Because a stock AMR is barely better than the regular sniper rifle. Even with explosive ammo and full skill, you gotta get a sneak hit to the head to take down a deathclaw in less than three or four shots. Doesn't seem like an anti-tank weapon to me...

 

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I'm just going to do what I

I'm just going to do what I want to do. If ya'll don't like it you can change it on your end.

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