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xalien
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I have two questions:

I have two questions:

1. Risewild has brought up a very good point about how STR requirements for heavy weapons hardly do anything. Totally agree. So the question is - can THAT be fixed? Like significantly increasing spread to the point where it gets very hard to hit anything that's not standing at point-blank range if you're short 5 or so STR, maybe increasing time to un-holster and reload? Is any of that feasible?

2. this one is derived the #1 - what penalties would be applied if we lack the skill, e.g. try to use minigun with only 5-10 skill? If it's just the spread then the argument about crouching and Steady applies here as well and we hardly gain anything by bringing back the skill. Especially with weapons that are primarily used at close range anyway, like flamers.

Risewild
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Weapon Skills affect accuracy

Weapon Skills affect accuracy and damage. At max in a skill you're dealing twice the damage using a weapon from that skill. So if you're using a skill with just 5-10 ranks in a skill, you're doing just 5-10% more damage with the weapon, if you have 60, you're doing 60% more damage, etc.

So if you have 100 on a weapon skill, you are dealing twice as much damage and that can factor in a few different ways. You are saving ammunition (you reduce the ammo needed to kill an enemy by half), you're increasing the longevity of your weapon by twice (kill things in half the amount of shots, means your weapon durability only decreases half of what it would). You save healing items (if you kill things in half the time, you get hit only half of the time too), etc.

All of the above can't be countered by just using Steady and crouching.

It also affects being able to pick some perks because they have skill requirements.

What the inclusion of Big Guns would also mean (as mentioned before) is that we wouldn't need to keep the edits to FO3 part of TTW that we had to remove, because the skill was gone. These are things like the Big Guns Skill book locations, the Big Guns Bobblehead, The Big Guns G.O.A.T. related questions and stuff like that.

darious24555
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I guess it would be better

I guess the perks would be better suited for an optional/mod.

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As someone who has used the

As someone who has used the M16, M4, M249, M240, and the AT4 before I can say that I'd like to see the big guns skill return, but rocket launchers should be left in another category entirely. Leave them in the explosives category. Place all belt fed machine guns into the Big guns category along with the other large weapons.

The problem I'm having is with the large energy weapons. It's just too bad that a weapon can't pull from two separate skills. But on the other hand no one's suggesting you require 50 in small guns before the big guns skill becomes available. That would be an Idea, but you've stated before that hiding a skill isn't possible. Ideally, you would require 50 small guns, energy weapons, and explosives before you could unlock big guns but I don't see that happening.

In the end, there's no perfect solution but what the hell, why not throw it back in and see how it goes? I like the idea of needing a special skill before I pick up the equivalent of an M134 and spewing hot death into everything that looks at me wrong.

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My opinion is to "Restore" it

My opinion is to "Restore" it.. not make it optional.  It was already a part of the game and disabled to accommodate the TTW integration.  I think the more that can be added (e.g. skills, traits, perks, etc), the more challenge it can be to play (considering you don't use the console or cheats).  I'm down either way, optional or restored.  However, I'd like it better restored since it's not a "new" feature really.  It's already there and disabled.  I also feel the more we can keep busy with, the longer these two games will remain active by both players and modders.  This series is one of the longest running series and is just as active now as before, thanks to our modding community!  If the TTW Team has found a way to make it work, we need to trust them and let it be worked!

CyberDanz The public junkie who LOVES Fallout!

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CyberDanz wrote: My opinion

CyberDanz wrote:

My opinion is to "Restore" it.. not make it optional.  It was already a part of the game and disabled to accommodate the TTW integration ... I'd like it better restored since it's not a "new" feature really ... It's already there and disabled.

What do you mean by these three lines? It is NOT part of New Vegas by default at all, which is the game on which TTW is built. It had to be manually re-added by jazzisparis, from the ground up, and is part of JIP's NVSE plugin. TTW does not disable Big Guns, that is something *New Vegas* itself did when it was made by Obisidian. Adding it to TTW would indeed by adding a "new" feature, both from a technical point of view, and from a gameplay point of view when compared to New Vegas. It doesn't make your opinion less valid, or make the change itself less valid, but I don't think that these statements are accurate. It doesn't matter, from TTW's current design viewpoint, if the mechanic is new or not, but it still is new. New Vegas does not have it natively, it has to be added through the script extender. 

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He means it was part of FO3,

He means it was part of FO3, so it should be part of the FO3 portion of TTW at least. TTW removes Big Guns from the FO3 portion to make it work with the FONV engine... but that's not needed anymore due to JIPLN, so he wants FO3 to retain the Big Guns by default. It would mean less changes to the FO3 weapons. There's also not a whole lot of weapons in FONV that would be affected, so from a standpoint of amount of work, it makes more sense to have BG enabled by default.

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Most of the weapons that

Most of the weapons that would be affected are in NV. The only weapons that aren't are the Rock-it-Launcher and the Drone Cannon (Unique versions of weapons in New Vegas don't count for this purpose). The Drone Cannon easily fits as an Energy Weapon (wouldn't be out of place as one in FO3 either considering the Tesla Cannon is an Energy Weapon imo). That leaves the Rock-it-Launcher, the one weapon that really doesn't fit in any category without Big Guns, so it basically goes to Explosives because that's where is makes the most sense.

Bringing back Big Guns destroys the progression in New Vegas, and would require substantial rebalancing to make it work properly. Fallout 3 however doesn't really need to be changed that much, as Big Guns were already endgame restricted, so having them there without the skill works even better. Fallout 3 is built around a much less strict progression model than New Vegas, so it makes more sense to just to leave things as they are in FO3, which doesn't really change whether big guns is there or not.

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After reading a bit more into

After reading a bit more into it, I mostly agree with darthbdaman. If you really want to bring back big guns though, how about this? Is there a way to restrict their use to an appropriate perk? Have a big guns perk for every category? Like "This is my boomstick!" for guns, "Disintegration!" for energy weapons, and "Why are my ears still ringing?" for explosives (the names of the perks would be better of course). My main gripe with big guns is it allows you to start out using rocket launchers and miniguns with the right build at early levels if you know where you can find them. You get to 75 in guns and have a str of 9? You can now use big guns! You have a 75 in energy weapons, a str of 6, and an int of 7? You can grab the perk for big energy weapons! You have a 75 in explosives, an int of 5, and a lck of 7? You can now use the big boombas! This needs a bit of refinement, but there you go, my two cents.

I think most of us agree, when it came to progression and a lot of the rpg elements in general, that New Vegas has a better system in place. Please don't fix what's not broken.

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The test version of the Tesla

The test version of the Tesla Cannon was Big Guns, they seem to have changed it on purpose.

A lot of these guns are end game weapons in New Vegas too, but hardly all. Most NPC's don't carry any of them anyway and you can only purchase them, find them in the world at specific locations, or get them from mods. The vast majority of NPC's in Vegas use 1hand and 2hand conventional firearms or energy weapons.

They are not exactly end game in DC the same as NV, you can b-line straight for GNR and get a fat man at level 1. There's a rocket launcher in Grayditch, and other big guns spread around in various low level places.

End game for NV and F3 is level 15, which doesn't really constitute that high of a level honestly, so massive rebalancing is not needed at all. Only DLC's scale beyond level 15 mostly, even Zeta which is interesting being that it scales to 43 and that is vanilla.

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I say no, because of three

I say no, because of three reasons:

a. Big guns is going to be the most versatile weapon skill in the game. Balance wise, energy weapons were always decent damage with very versatile ammo but lacked suppressed weapons. Small arms had to shop for ammo specific to weapons but were immensely powerful because the stealth approach was easy to do. You now have your suppressed sniper, can draw from all ammo sources and have a weapon for all situations. If this happens the anti-material rifle (gra) will need its suppressor mod removed at the very least.

b. Heavy weapons introduced by mods are going to default to the wrong skill.

c. Every weapon that is now a Big Gun, is going to not be in Small Arms/Energy Weapons. While that sounds obvious, i'll need to ask myself, why would i ever pick EW or SA, my endgame weapon is in Big Guns and i get the other endgame thingies too, with melee weapons to boot. Energy weapons especially have become completely dead for me if this change makes it, because all the fun toys are now another skill.

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Cataca wrote:

Cataca wrote:

 

I say no, because of three reasons:

a. Big guns is going to be the most versatile weapon skill in the game. Balance wise, energy weapons were always decent damage with very versatile ammo but lacked suppressed weapons. Small arms had to shop for ammo specific to weapons but were immensely powerful because the stealth approach was easy to do. You now have your suppressed sniper, can draw from all ammo sources and have a weapon for all situations. If this happens the anti-material rifle (gra) will need its suppressor mod removed at the very least.

b. Heavy weapons introduced by mods are going to default to the wrong skill.

c. Every weapon that is now a Big Gun, is going to not be in Small Arms/Energy Weapons. While that sounds obvious, i'll need to ask myself, why would i ever pick EW or SA, my endgame weapon is in Big Guns and i get the other endgame thingies too, with melee weapons to boot. Energy weapons especially have become completely dead for me if this change makes it, because all the fun toys are now another skill.

Well, we can look at the other side of things:

a) All weapon skills are versatile, both Small Guns and Energy Weapons have close combat weapons and long reach ones, both allow to make a gunslinger (pistols), a skirmisher (medium range weapons like normal rifles and shotguns), a sniper (long range rifles), an assassin (silent weapons), etc. and they would still be versatile even with the inclusion of Big Guns skill.
I don't see why the Big Guns would unbalance this, I also don't see why the suppressor would have to be removed. Only the GRA version of the weapon can get that mod and NPCs don't use modded weapons, so I don't see why would make any difference if the PC can use it or not, after all it was balanced when it was a Small Gun, why wouldn't it be balanced if it was a Big Guns? Also to have a weapon for all occasion when making a Big Guns character, you will be lugging around almost 100lbs of weight just for the weapons, if you play hardcore you will add the ammo weight too. It is quite a penalty for many players. Also for the most part one would be limited to use the Rock-it Launcher or try to get a better Big Gun which will probably be in very bad condition and the ammo will be scarce at the start fo the game. The way I see Big Guns is that it penalizes the player in the early game but then rewards it by the end game.

b) As several team members said before, integration with other mods will not be a problem.

c) If you like to use big weapons by the end game, then shouldn't you love that skill? That way you can play the entire game using the type of weapons you would only enjoy by the end game.

 

But don't worry, I am pretty sure that Big Guns will be optional .

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You can't play the whole game
You can't play the whole game that way though, no matter if the skill is there or not. There isn't anything close to an appropriate selection of weaponry for it to work. Most of the Big Guns are end game weapons that you won't be able to get until later. Are you going to only use the Rock-it-Launcher all game? Maybe use the incinerator for a few fights, but repairing them is nearly impossible early on. Just adding the skill pack doesn't let you play as a big guns character the whole game. It takes a substantial change of everything from leveled lists to NPC types
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"but repairing them is nearly

"but repairing them is nearly impossible early on"

Again, forgetting that vendors do repair stuff and it costs caps to get things repaired.

Energy Weapons and Explosives builds are also not feasible early game, they are mostly mid to end game weapons, I see no change there because of class. That goes for higher powered Guns too, they are not only level gated but skill gated, that argument is not a valid one.

The Rock-It launcher is also a powerful weapon useful throughout early game, the lack of diversity is something to consider but there is also flamers and incinerators and miniguns early on.

All the classes have plenty of throw away weapons that are more for NPCs than the player, it changes little in my experiments so far.

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Paying to repair is not a

Paying to repair is not a viable option considering the exorbitant costs, especially when considering Big Guns usually have higher values than other weapons.

Energy and Explosives are viable. Dynamite is plentiful in the early game, and laser pistols and recharger rifles are fairly easy to find. They have a role in the early game. The incinerator really doesn't it's too rare. Miniguns can't be found early in new vegas, and they aren't common enough, and the ammo not plentiful enough, to be usable in early game DC.

I don't know what your talking about with skill gating. There are tons of explosives and energy weapons with 0-25 skill requirements. In contrast, there is one Big Gun at 0 (Rock-It-Launcher, which we are adding), and one at 25 (Incinerator). We can change the skill requirements, but that's getting into even more serious edits.

I'm not opposed to adding Big Guns, but saying it fits back into the game fine isn't true. It causes serious disruptions that ripple through other parts of the game, and requires lots of further adjustments to implement appropriately

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Well it's not designed to

Well it's not designed to work with an FNV start, that's not what TTW is about and never was.

That also backs up my opinion that repair was made OP in NV and was a bad change. The economy is there for it in NV, and there are plenty of vendors who repair there, and it's never used.

Where is this rule written that a class of weapons has to be usable early game? Sure dynamite and laser pistol is available early in Vegas (laser pistol and rifle is just as hard to find as a minigun) but who seriously uses them? Mines and grenades are far more useful. Either way yeah, the rock it launcher, and it's *very* effective and has unlimited ammo for free at the cost of carry weight. The useful weapons outside of firearms are skill and level gated, that's by design, in both games.

Anyways this is diverging back into "I don't like this idea because x" instead of "If we do this how can we make it work".

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

Energy Weapons and Explosives builds are also not feasible early game, they are mostly mid to end game weapons, I see no change there because of class.

In which game? I don't seem to recall them being hard to get in New Vegas. You can get a laser pistol from the Doc, buy bulk ammo and mods from Chet, and find two more leveled energy guns on dead Bright Brotherhood followers near the starting area (under the Sloan bridge and in Goodsprings cave). If you get a recharger rifle, which is quite likely, you don't even need to worry about ammo. On normal difficulty, (which is the default, recommended difficult the game was balanced around) laser and recharger weapons are sufficient at early levels of the game.

 

That said, I am not very knowledgeable about the intended balance of Fallout 3's energy weapons, I never used them much, and they may have been less viable at early levels in that game. I always went straight to the hunting rifle, and generally favored small guns in that game. The proposed changes might work OK on the Fallout 3 side. 

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Yes that is correct, I don't

Yes that is correct, I don't see how this changes anything about the early game. There's enough junk around to build the rock-it launcher provided chet sells the schematic for it (so you can repair it) and is given the items to create it just like Moira which is a trivial thing to do.

I'll say this one more time, please suggest solutions to make it work in a fair and balanced way instead of arguing against it. We're past the point where it was decided it's not going to be integrated, but optional. Lets move on to implementation now.

Additionally as with all optionals, if you don't like it, don't use it.

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

 

Yes that is correct, I don't see how this changes anything about the early game. There's enough junk around to build the rock-it launcher provided chet sells the schematic for it (so you can repair it) and is given the items to create it just like Moira which is a trivial thing to do.

I'll say this one more time, please suggest solutions to make it work in a fair and balanced way instead of arguing against it. We're past the point where it was decided it's not going to be integrated, but optional. Lets move on to implementation now.

Additionally as with all optionals, if you don't like it, don't use it.

I think the problems herein lies that a lot of people don't know HOW to suggest implementing it in a fair and balanced way. Me being one of them. Given how F:NV has different functions and mechanics, I don't know exactly how it should be treated. I felt it was too limited in FO3 and stole too much from explosives, but New Vegas has a wider variety of weapons to mitigate that to an extent. My biggest thing would be making it a viable choice at most portions of the game. I've never been a fan of making a skill useful only at a certain portions of the game. If a skill is only useful later on, you're already too invested in other skills to bother. If it only has uses early game, then it feels like wasting points. That's probably why I never liked Big Guns in FO3, not enough options at all portions of the game. 

Perhaps strength requirement could be a factor? Like say, anything that requires 8+ strength to wield accurately?

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I also only have a partial

I also only have a partial idea how to implement it in such a way, that is why I was asking for community feedback on it. I was hoping that the community would have some more positive and constructive suggestions rather than the knee jerk negative reaction that seems common place these days.

I'm still going to try and push for those positive suggestions however, I know they are out there, just got to dig a bit more for them. So if you can ask yourselves if you were in the position, what would you do?

The strength requirement is something to look at, even though from a mechanics stand point the weight of weapons doesn't really have much bearing on that. However I think it should to a degree, the things I suggested for inclusion were more based on the weapons grip style. That relates more towards it's handling rather than how bulky or heavy the particular weapon is.

I also try to stray away from pure numbers for deciding things, as it's a narrow view and leaves out too many other considerations like progression (relation to other weapons at that level), feel (fire rate, effectiveness), where it fits in the damage pool (usefulness at a given skill level), how it relates to perks and crossover between them. Then there is the fun factor and the min/max thing that other players choose.

So that kind of lays things out to consider, I still think my original outline fits fairly well and needs some tweaking along with deciding when and where things should be made available in Vegas. Yes that includes tweaking things to compensate in other areas, but should be fairly minimal really.

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I could come up with

I could come up with suggestions. But I would need to have a "working prototype" of the Big Guns skill already implemented so I could test it and come up with balance, accessibility, progression, etc suggestions, and that is already past the point for suggestions for how to implement it in the first place .

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I'll get something together

I'll get something together soon then. Need to think about who gets schematics in NV. I guess Chet, and Gun Runners makes sense... where else?

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Just a thought of where to

Just a thought of where to get some schematics in NV with reasons provided (and not just big guns).

Deathclaw Gauntlet - Sloan, i'd think for obvious reasons. If you're gutsy enough to go try to slay a deathclaw at that early of a level you deserve to make it. Get it from that lady at the bar who also makes the omelettes. Or better yet have her give you the recipe for both the omelette and the gauntlet when you bring her a deathclaw egg.

Rock-It Launcher - sold by Chet, so its early game accessible as per F3 with Moira.

Railway Rifle - sold at Mick and Ralph's, a polite society is an armed society.

Bottlecap Mine - sold by Cliff Briscoe in Novac, or can be looted from the irradiated locked room behind his desk.

Shishkebab - perhaps a reward for beating all of the combatants in the Legion Arena, gives some incentive to do that series of micro-quests.

Nuka Grenade - given by Fantasitc at Helios One after completing his relevant quest, or you can kill him and it's on his corpse.

Dart Gun - not sure about this one, maybe hidden inside a toy crate at the children's barracks at Nellis?

Side note, I like all the ideas posted here. Big Guns would be a great addition to regular gameplay and would do good to shake up my common builds and make me try new things. Y'all keep doing God's work.

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

 

I'll get something together soon then. Need to think about who gets schematics in NV. I guess Chet, and Gun Runners makes sense... where else?

I'd say Old Lady Gibson since she's near Novac and you see her pretty early game. And she's a junk dealer. 

With the Gun Runners I'd personally not think that schematics would be available from them as they even mention their secrecy, unless it's a theft aspect. 

I know this may be a really stupid question. But are there tiers to Big Guns or are they all basically same tier?

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

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I kinda like the weapon

I kinda like the weapon schematic placements you posted GoingZelda. The Shishkebab would only be available to male characters if it was tied to the Legion arena though.

In terms of rebalancing the Big Guns weapons Roy have you considered boosting the power of the uniques slightly and giving them a slightly higher weapons skill req to get the full power?  I was thinking kind of like how the K9000 is a skill 75 weapon while FIDO, the unique variant, is a skill 85 weapon. That could help fill in the gaps in the 0-100 skill spread somewhat. Like if the minigun was a base 50 Big Guns skill and Eugene was 65 or something.  This might also make some of the uniques in NV worth getting as currently, they are overshadowed by their base variants with all the mods installed. I'd probably leave Vengeance alone though, it's powerful enough as it is.

As a side note I don't think repairing such items would be that difficult in DC. There are several places where NPC's with miniguns or flamers are guaranteed spawns fairly early in the game. Plus TTW makes weapon repair kits a thing in DC. There's a ton and a half of scrap laying around to make those.

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There's a quest to steal data

There's a quest to steal data from the Gun Runners for the Crimson Caravan, so I'd say that the CC should have a few of the "lower level" schematics, and the better/higher level ones be in the GR shop so that you can steal them during that quest.

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Have you considered making

Have you considered making the Drone canon available in Vegas? At the Alien crash site? Here is why I think you should:

In Vanilla FNV, choosing WW or not choosing it yeilds a powerful energy weapon in both cases, so there is no major gameplay reason to pick one or the other. With Big Guns, you will be choosing between a Big Gun and an Energy Gun, which is not ideal IMO. If the aliens also carried a Drone Canon, that would make it better, IMO. (You already get Energy Guns from the mercs, if you choose that encounter, they carry laser guns). Just my 2 cents. 

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The Gauss Rifle should

The Gauss Rifle should probably be a big gun, if the AMR is going to be one.

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On the topic of Big Guns
On the topic of Big Guns repair. FWE completely removed that problem, by allowing the player to use appropriate junk as repair parts. Sure, you'should need a ton of it, but it was a viable alternative solution to spending the last money you have on repairs,rather then a weapon mod. At the same time, vendor repairs are kept relevant due to F3 repair mechanic
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There are also weapon repair

There are also weapon repair kits, a character can buy (costs 20 to 30 caps) and even craft those (with the appropriate skill level) easily. In Fallout 3 there is also Alien Epoxy, which weights 0, repairs more with less repair skill and the player can keep getting those for free when Sally (every 24 hours I think) gives new items after the MZ DLC is finished (it is random if she gives 1-3 Epoxy and/or other items each time).

Repairing weapons in TTW is even easier than in just FNV (which is already easier than it was in FO3).

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Well, weapon condition

Well, weapon condition degradation was always too high in FO3/FONV in any case. I've never seen weapons that needed so much repair! So I never felt bad about having things like weapon repair kits made at the workbench, and gun oil lying around that could "fix" your weapons. The gun oil in particular - most owners NEVER repair a weapon, EVER! They clean and oil the gun, and it lasts a lifetime. So I'd say to make cleaning and oiling replace current repair, and make ACTUAL weapon repair require special parts and/or an expert repairman. Yes, that's beyond the base game, and really ought to be a mod, so I'll stick with my gun oil, thank you very much.

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Gun oil is also a mod, it's

Gun oil is also a mod, it's part of RH Iron Sights.

Weapon Repair Kits are actually just like Alien Epoxy too, they reused the script for those.

The high degradation makes somewhat sense, you're using 200+ years old weapons for the most part and they are likely very worn and in poor shape overall. Also for economy reasons and mechanics reasons. It's a game, not a simulator.

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Yeah, I always install the

Yeah, I always install the gun oil mod, then mod it some more in xEdit to add support for various custom weapons.

I know the gun condition is just a game mechanic - not a bad one either. It's just not very realistic. :)  No matter how old the gun is, it's generally either going to explode in your hand, or work perfectly, depending on how it was cared for over the years. There are lots of guns that are hundreds of years old that are still being fired today - collectors pay a LOT more for a 300 year-old gun that can still be fired than a 300 year-old piece of rust that looks like a gun. :D

My own thought for how they should have done it was the gun condition as a measure of it's cleanliness. Once a gun gets too dirty, it starts to jam, misfire, and have a chance of exploding in your hands. You clean the weapon instead of fix it. Damage CAN be done to weapons... by attacks or jamming or misfires. Once a gun is damaged, it can't be used until it is fixed by replacing parts, like a new barrel, etc.

 

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Weapon degradation was too

Weapon degradation was too high in New Vegas? I find that it's not high ENOUGH in some cases. A lot of weapons can fire 1000-2000 times without breaking. The weapons that break after 400-700 shots I found to be reasonable enough in most cases. When a gun can fire 1500-2500 times without breaking, the repair/degradation is almost completely null and void.

Either way, I don't think repair is too big an issue for big guns. You have tons of vendors that can repair, and the parts to make your own repair kits are not exactly uncommon unless you're using some sort of loot mod. There ought to be some kind of drawback to welding the heavy-hitters anyway.

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Although we're probably

Although we're probably geting a little off-topic now but I really like @jfl65's take on the repair system for guns. I too view the cleaning of guns as the more important aspect of their maintenance.

  • Clean == good
  • Dirty == boom in your face.
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While it's not like it is

While it's not like it is perfectly realistic, I've always found weapon condition reduction kind of atmospheric detail for a post-nuke game such as Fallout. Another good thing to come from having a weapon health stat is that it is actually possible to shoot at an opponents firearm and have it sustain damage or break down.

Seriously though, guns in bad condition/rusty (or very dirty inside) can and do realistically suffer from some problems like occasional jamming/misfeed or reduction of accuracy, and that is before one even considers what kind of condition the ammo is in after 200 years (might vary a lot, some of it very old, some of it newly recycled but handloaded with varying degrees of competence/success). If a gun has been handed down from one user to another in a struggle for post-apoc survival for two centuries, and thousands of rounds of varying quality have gone through it, not to mention it has propably also been used as a melee weapon occasionally, I would imagine it would not be quite as good as it was brand new - Definitely less accurate, perhaps also less reliable than it once was.

Also, IRL it matters a lot whether frex 500 rounds have been fired through the weapon in small groups over time during the last week (no real damage to the weapon, very slight accuracy reduction maybe), or machinegunned downrange inside one single minute - Sustained rapid fire overheats and damages the weapon, in some cases up to and including setting wooden or plastic parts on fire.. (This propably would not be easy to simulate in F3/FNV, so the system simply counts total number of rounds fired against weapon condition.)

Ideally, IMHO a system where 'weapon cleaning kits' could only restore weapon condition up to a limit and paid vendor services would be necessary to get the gun up to 100 percent, would seem most plausible and fair.

 

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jlf65 wrote:

jlf65 wrote:

I know the gun condition is just a game mechanic - not a bad one either. It's just not very realistic. :)  No matter how old the gun is, it's generally either going to explode in your hand, or work perfectly, depending on how it was cared for over the years. There are lots of guns that are hundreds of years old that are still being fired today - collectors pay a LOT more for a 300 year-old gun that can still be fired than a 300 year-old piece of rust that looks like a gun. :D

My own thought for how they should have done it was the gun condition as a measure of it's cleanliness. Once a gun gets too dirty, it starts to jam, misfire, and have a chance of exploding in your hands. You clean the weapon instead of fix it. Damage CAN be done to weapons... by attacks or jamming or misfires. Once a gun is damaged, it can't be used until it is fixed by replacing parts, like a new barrel, etc.

I value realism more than most people do in RPG games. I am also a real-life antique weapons enthusiast, and I can attest that a gun either works, or it doesn't work. The idea of gradual, linear degradation is largely a myth, with very few exceptions, things fail all at once catastrophically, or never fail at all. Most of the old guns that no longer exist never broke at all, they were instead intentionally scuttled by the army. 

How is this relevant to TTW? It isn't, and I beg Roy's pardon! Sorry, I just agree with the sentiment, and would love to see a well-made, fleshed out mod for TTW/FNV that makes guns work more realistically. 

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I hate being the Big Bad Wolf

I hate being the Big Bad Wolf, but for discussion about new repair system mods and all of that please make a new thread on TTW Mod Requests (if requesting a new mod) or TTW Mod Talk (if just wanting to brainstorm ideas for a mod).

This will allow this thread to focus once again on Big Guns implementation and will allow the discussion about a repair mod to be made much in depth and who knows, maybe some modder will like the idea and make it happen .

Thanks for putting up with me being all "Admin mode" and all of that, but i think that the discussion of a new repair system is interesting enough that a new thread about it would actually be active and could lead to something .

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Sorry Rise! My apologies. As

Sorry Rise! My apologies. As for Big Guns, I guess I second Gauss being one. It just makes sense given that the AMR is going to be one. 

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Except that the gauss rifle

Except that the gauss rifle fires a 2mm projectile via energy cell powered magnets. I can't see any way to call it a "big" gun. It's more of a glorified dart gun.

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Very glorified.

Very glorified.

"Universal glory"-style glorified. And rightfully so. There are two examples in fiction which I can think of on the spot, which represent the type of technology we are dealing with here.

The first example, are the EM-1 railguns from the film Erazer, with Arnie in the lead role. The way they work are identical, although the specific descriptions are a bit off (writers have no sense of scale).

The second example, are your standard weapons in the Mass Effect series.

A Railgun has the potential to be FAR more dangerous than laser or even plasma weapons, with the kinetic force of a fatman loaded into a single 2mm pellet, striking the target at supersonic speeds.

Sure, the Fallout version of it is slightly less powerful, but it is still a massively effective weapon in gameplay terms (moreso in F3, where it knocked down enemies, big and small). It definitely could be a Big Gun, but not a 100 skill big gun. It probably is more weildy than a 100 skill would imply.

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The fallout 3 version isn't
The fallout 3 version isn't the same as the fallout 2 version. We have no idea what type of ammo it uses or how it works, because bethesda didn't bother to think about it (which is why it's an energy weapon). Anyways, it's a massive rifle. If the auto rifle and amr are big guns, the Gauss Rifle really should be
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The content in NV wasn't made

The content in NV wasn't made with Big Guns in mind. If you're going to do this then you may have to rebalance the entire combat system and even the mobs themselves to make it work. Some people are of the opinion that having a trait dedicated to Big Guns when they're almost exclusively late-game content renders them useless because they've already spent too much time, money and points making the other types just as useful or powerful.

In that case we need to make Big Guns even more powerful than the rest but gate them behind a few game mechanics so that only players above a certain level (for example) can use them, as well having a SPECIAL minimum requirement for STR and maybe END. You could also make it so it requires proper traiting in handling and maintenance(because repairing a flamethrower or a rocket-launcher can't be as easy as repairing a simple pea shooter).

I think Big Guns should be able to go through armor better and more often than regular guns, they were made to destroy after all. What kind of armor can protect you against a rain of fast-firing bullets from a minigun or from being cooked alive by a flamethrower? Or a mini-nuke? IMO these guns should feel OP but the scarcity of ammo and high maintenance costs means they can only be used on rare occasions and not just whenever. 

 

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This has been addressed by

This has been addressed by Roy before.

There are early level Big Guns, and there needs to be no more incentive for them to be used, than the there needs to be additional incentive for people to invest into Energy Weapons in tandem with Small Guns.

Its a role-playing choice. Brick, from Reilly's Rangers, would have still used her minigun, head she turned up in New Vegas. And it would make sense for her to more apt with it, than with a revolver or a rifle. Without Big Guns, you still invested somewhat into Explosives and Energy weapons besides Meleee or Small Guns, probably. Well, with Big Guns, you will have to forgo one of those, but you will probably have still have a back-up skill.

Big Guns offer higher rate of fire and unique types of damage (fire damage), that the other skills don't.

And there will not be a sudden major imbalance. In the world, the NPCs will be hardly different. The difference will be mainly felt in how the PC handles, and how his build is approached.

There is no point in level-locking them, UNLESS you make them more powerful, as you suggested.

There is no point in making it harder to repair them, since there are not that many of them in the game, so it already more difficult.

If you run into a raider with a minigun, how will the game balance be affected by him having high Big Guns and not Small Guns? He will probably live and die at your hand with that minigun in hand, how will you know the difference?

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jlf65 wrote:

jlf65 wrote:

Except that the gauss rifle fires a 2mm projectile via energy cell powered magnets. I can't see any way to call it a "big" gun. It's more of a glorified dart gun.

Based on that logic, the Gatling Laser only fires microscopic photons quadrillions of times smaller than an atom. So, why is it classified as a "Big Gun?" Because of the size and handling of the weapon itself, not of the projectile type. It is heavy, it is crank operated, and is generally similar in its purpose to the AMR. 

We have "Big" and "Small" weapons that both fire 50 Cal ammo (12.77 MM is the same diameter as .50 CAL). We have 
"Big" and small weapons that fire .308 and .556. We have "Big" and "Small" plasma and laser weapons. The projectile is irrelevant. 

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12.7mm is the same as .50

12.7mm is the same as .50 action express, this is a hand gun round. .50 BMG is a rifle round and waaaay more powerful as it is an anti-tank round designed to pierce thick armor.

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Gauss guns and rail guns are

Gauss guns and rail guns are NOT remotely the same weapon. Too many people (especially authors) don't put in the research and get it badly wrong. A rail gun IS a big gun... big as in FREAKING HUGE, meant to be installed on capital ships. A gauss gun is a small gun, relatively speaking, with nowhere near the damage potential. They use completely different principles to launch metal projectiles. The projectiles are also completely different.

A Gatling laser is a big gun because it's multiple laser rifles joined together, making it BIG, and held and fired like a minigun.

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Again the Gauss Rifle in
Again the Gauss Rifle in Fallout 3 is nonsense. It uses mf cells, and shoots and energy projectile, but is called a gauss gun. It's a good big gun, whatever it's called
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darthbdaman wrote:Again the

darthbdaman wrote:

Again the Gauss Rifle in Fallout 3 is nonsense. It uses mf cells, and shoots and energy projectile, but is called a gauss gun. It's a good big gun, whatever it's called

Yes, the FO3/NV version is clearly an energy weapon that happens to be called a "gauss" gun. I'd say rename it to something like a "gauss plasma" gun and move it to the energy weapon category. However, if you look at the model, it clearly has a magazine of the side for the 2mm projectiles, and uses the mf cell on the opposite side to power the electronics. It was an interesting idea, needing two different ammos and reload animations to make it work, but they never got around to it, so it became just another plasma gun.

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" laser rifles joined

" laser rifles joined together, making it BIG" You do realize that a laser is beam of light, yes? It's literally the smallest thing in the universe. It doesn't matter if there are dozens of them, they are still just tiny, little photons. 

 

@Roy

Fine, ignore .50 caliber. It doesn't change the fact that there are still .308, .556, and plasma/laser weapons on both sides of the Big/Small divide. Which means that ammo is not the deciding factor. 

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