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EnderDragonFire
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Well, I've already stated my

Well, I've already stated my opinion several times, but I had an additional thought; While there won't be any direct INCOMPATIBILITY with New Vegas mods that add new weapons, there would be a glaring INCONSISTENCY, which most users would need (or at least want) to patch.

Normal mini-guns and gatling lasers (for example) would now be "Big Guns" while mod added derivatives of those weapons (which are often actually bigger, heavier, and more powerful) would be small guns/energy weapons. I know that TTW doesn't worry much about other mods, but i think it's still worth considering. EVERY mod-added minigun, AMR, gatling laser, flamethrower, missile launcher, or LMG would need to be patched to work correctly with TTW (from a balance/consitency point of view). That would mean more work for the end user, since many people play with mod added weapons. 

Just an example, something like this:

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/36056/

Would count as an energy weapon and not a big gun, unless the end user manually patched it to fit with TTW's new weapon classifying logic. There are dozens of other popular weapon mods that would seem out of place if they were not "Big Guns" in a game where such a class of weapons exists. 

 

I hope that made sense? I am not talking about literal "hard" incompatibility or conflicts causing errors, instability, or anything like that. I am talking about *stylistic* inconsistency and balance issues. Since this change would take TTW away from following vanilla style and vanilla balance regarding these types of weapons, it would clash with other mods that still follow vanilla conventions. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

tawatabak
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pros

pros

more possibilities for different roleplay builds  

maybe restores some speechchecks(i dont know if there are many)  

converting fallout 3 mods could be easier  

its already easy to hit 100 points in every skill so 1 more skill would make that harder, which would be good  

big guns was always a skill in the games prior to new vegas, so bringing it back would make the game feel more like... well fallout  

more options for modding purposes when it comes to skills available for dialogue checks, weapons, npc skills and classes  

The variety of Big Guns which span several sub-categories can be seen as a benefit to the player who invests in the skill, IMO, enabling one to enjoy a little bit of everything  

1 more bobblehead and skillbook type+magazine to find, which is good   

playing the dc side of the game woud feel more like the original fallout 3  

ttw itself would feel more like the best of both worlds  

TAWM
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EnderDragonFire wrote:

EnderDragonFire wrote:

It would turn people AWAY from TTW if they don't have the time or knowledge to manually reverse these sort of unwanted changes, simply so they can play a vanilla FNV type of character build. For the love of whatever god(or goddess, or whatever) you pray to, do not put this in the main TTW mod.

 

jlf65 wrote:

 

I've played sniper characters where at low levels, the sway was so bad it limited my rate of fire more than the weapon. It just "encourages" you to put points where it will help your character the quickest. In FO3, that might be big guns and endurance, while in FNV it's guns and strength. It's basically the same game play, you just have to know what skills/abilities affect what.

This is different between FO3 and FNV, so having FO3 under TTW use FNV rules is handy - you only need to learn one set of rules. If you're using TTW to play FO3 in a more stable environment or with extra features like different kinds of ammo, but want the same rules for skills/abilities, then the option of going back to big guns would be appreciated by those folks.

 

Honestly as someone who is a fallout 3 player who found out about TTW and started playing it there is a little bit of a learning curve because of how fallout 3 handles things compared to how new vegas handles things.  However the learning curve is not huge.  I opened up on a supermutant master at level 6 with a chinese assault rifle emptying several clips into his head to try and kill him.  Due to New Vegas using damage threshold instead of damage reduction like in Fallout 3 the CAR was not as effective right off the bat against supermutants like it was in Fallout 3.  However when I decided to kill the next supermutant master with a sledgehammer I killed him pretty quickly compared to Fallout 3 since the supermutants have damage threshold instead of damage reduction which makes melee and unarmed builds more effective than in fallout 3.  

Quite a few changes like this exist between the two games.  Another huge one is energy weapons being nerfed compared to how they are fallout 3.  Energy Weapons rocked in Fallout 3 and are more powerful than small guns but rarer and you have to have the enclave show up for them to be plentiful in the game.  Small guns on the other hand were common and while weaker were much easier to get and stock pile ammo for.  New Vegas for whatever reason Obsidan decided to make Energy Weapons weak...the only energy weapon from New Vegas that I can think of that would work well in vanilla fallout 3 game on the level of the metal blaster, fallout 3 version of gauss rifle and A3-21 plasma rifle is the holorifle the rest are either extremely weak or consume to much ammo (really 2 microfusion cells for plasma rifles and 5 microfusion cells for gauss rifle in New Vegas!). 

 

For everyone going on and on saying bring big guns skill back as default will ruin NV, turn people off to TTW, unbalance guns skill, etc.

I honestly think you all are being a bit hysterical.  Big Guns skill would add a bit of a learning curve to new vegas players who never played actual fallout 3.  However it's a much much smaller learning curve than going from Fallout 3 to TTW in regards to learning the mechanics.  Players will adapt to it pretty quickly.  Some won't like the change sure but it's not as drastic as people on here are going on about.  Your still using NV mechanics if the big guns skill comes back as default in TTW. 

As far unbalancing and/or breaking the guns skill goes I'm going to have to go against the grain and say it would actually help balance the weapons out.  Guns in New Vegas are vastly overpowered compared to energy weapons due to obsidian nerfing energy weapons compared to how they were in fallout 3. So with the power difference between the two gone and guns being more readily available the guns skill losing some of the more top tier weapons would actually help balance out guns and energy weapons also big guns would be in balance to because while extremely powerful they are not readily available as guns or energy weapons and have a much higher weight making carrying a bunch of them around a hassle compared to guns or energy weapons giving them a drawback to guns and energy weapons which would help balance the three out.     

 


Not to mention bring back big guns by default would allow cut content from Fallout 3 to be brought into TTW such as speech checks, goat answers, big guns bobblehead and skill books. 

 

RoyBatty wrote:

The survivial bobblehead would have an extra space made for it on the stand in the front row center. We'd have to figure out a new place to put it to find in the world.

The Warrens by reclining groves would make an excellent spot.  It's a cave with 3 dead bodies and dogs in it.  Would actually give people a reason to go into the cave plus it's an area over 90% of people who played fallout 3 don't even know exists. 

 

RoyBatty
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@TAWM That's an excellent

@TAWM That's an excellent location suggestion. :D

barmyarmy72
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Well, I did already mention

Well, I did already mention it, but yeah. I see it as a bit unnecessary as F:NV has its own way of handling big weapons, by making guns the all around skill and then tying weapons to strength.

I mean, you could get rid of strength requirements and make it truly like Fallout 3, but I mean hey, why fix something that's not broken? That's why I'm more of an optional kinda guy. I think NV did it better tbh.

Oh, and that was a reply to Risewild.

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I'm gonna chine in again,

I'm gonna chine in again, seeing as this conversation is very much alive.

After reviewing the thread, I personally see the greatest atribute of all this being portability of FO3 mods. It never even occurred to me how a mod that touched big guns would even port over, but with the stat restored, the problem seems to solve itself.

I still think it should be optional, but I understand why you'd want to include it in the core build. I'd say good documentation would elevate any caveats players might have why installing, but I know reality doesn't work that smoothly.

Risewild
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The problem with the Strength

The problem with the Strength requirement is, that it doesn't do much to be honest. You sway a bit more but the game gives you the drug Steady, even with no STR requirements and all limbs broken you will get no sway or spread if you pop a Steady. Steady can be bought in 3 or 4 different merchants and one can get as many as they want from the Sierra Madre vending machines, so it is easily available.

Also if you crouch and aim using the iron sights, both of those things reduce sway enough that STR penalties are even less noticeable. And the game also allows the player to boost STR easily, like with the Buffout or any alcoholic drink. So using a Buffout and any alcoholic drink will give you +3 to +6 STR for quite a while. Well, my point is that STR requirements are easy to bypass in the game, and even if one doesn't bypass them, the sway might not be that much .

 

Anyway. In my opinion I think it should be optional, due to the fact that it would disrupt too much of the FNV side of TTW. Both explosives and Energy weapons would lose ALL skill level 100 weapons. That is a huge change from FNV and TTW always tried to keep NV unchanged unless it really needed to change it. This change would be too big to fit in vanilla TTW but a perfect Optional (since many optionals are to give TTW a more FO3 feel now ).

And I am sure there are still many people out there who didn't tell us their opinions, so once again I say "Keep it coming!" .

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Fair enough. I don't think I

Fair enough. I don't think I realised just how easy it is to take advantage in vanilla. I had usually used mods that made the weapon sway more intense.

But yeah I totally agree. TTW is more about adhering to the F:NV style (give or take with some bad decisions like NV's repair). I mean, hey, there's so many optionals for the little F3 stuff, this would be a great thing to throw in.

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I get that there are people

I get that there are people who use TTW solely to play FO3 in a slightly updated engine for who this could be neat.
But there are also people who prefer F:NVs way of handling weapons. Also to be completely honest: I just don't want to have to spend the time removing TTW's Big Guns skill from my setup. 

A huge overhaul like this also seems way out of scope for what TTW is and would be more suited for a side project. But that's my hard line anti-feature creep stance talking.  
My 2 cts: Definitely keep this as an optional module.

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Either as a well integrated
Either as a well integrated optional, or as part of a baseries game, I'd love this addition to the game. I was rather perplexed by NV removing Big Guns from the game, in the same way I was disappointed by how the repair mechanic worked in NV. Strength requirement, while a logical addition, does not represent just how different a grenade launder is from a grenade, and how different a mini gun is from an assault rifle. Additionally, playing Fallout 4 has reinvigorated my appreciation for not being able to max out all of your skills, and having to specialise. I guess it would make sense as an optional, but I don't know if an optional would do the mechanic justice. Purely selfishly, I would love this mechanic to be in the Base game. Most of the arguments against it have more to do with lack of familiarity, than actual impact on gameplay quality. Sure, it is a change from NV gameplay, but NV is not perfect by default.
barmyarmy72
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Holy cowtits the site's back.

Holy cowtits the site's back.

RoyBatty
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Indeed it is, let the debate

Indeed it is, let the debate continue. :D

EnderDragonFire
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Glad to see the site back! 

Glad to see the site back! 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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I like the idea about the

I like the idea about the place for the supposed Survival Bobblehead.

I never even noticed this place in like 10 playthroughs with probably like 1000 hours yet. Just amazing still finding new locations. But honestly I am not even looking for such places anymore since my brain expects to know every location. Boy am I wrong.

The place is on YouTube btw. Watched the video. Its not that great of a place. Just a really small cave with a few dogs and 2 dead persons in it. However, I guess nearly nobody ever visited it. Plus its not really worth it anyway. With the Survival Bobblehead, this changes I would say.

Nice being able to login again. FINALLY!

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I wanted this mod to play

I wanted this mod to play Fallout 3 in the NV engine to have the improvements made, one of which, IMO, was the removal of Big Guns. So I'd rather it be just optional, since to me this mod was to play 3 in NV, not play NV in 3 or 3 in a more stable engine. Those seems peripheral in my opinion, but I see no reason to deny it to people. I'm somewhat more afraid of it being a major focus and having to get it to get the most out of the mod, rather than working to get it to be how I like.

However, this isn't my mod to make, but also just my opinion.

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i say it needs to be at least

i say it needs to be at least optional

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It would be fantastic to have

It would be fantastic to have it back. I miss it.

Even just as an option.

That someone even managed to do it in itself is impressive.

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I'm pretty sure this would

I'm pretty sure this would break http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/45604/? , or at the very least make it require a patch to function properly.
Which is why i think it should be optional, have it if you want it, don't if you don't.

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A lot of things need a patch

A lot of things need a patch to function properly. So that's not really a valid argument in this case.

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Lurker here.

Lurker here.

Something I've not seen discussed is its roleplay viability. Apologies if I missed it.

How will you guys handle the speech checks in New Vegas, should it be made official? Will all the Guns speech checks be made into Small Guns? Will I then be penalized if I spec into Big Guns, being unable to use these checks to roleplay my character despite having a working knowledge of firearms? Will the speech checks be divided along both Big Guns and Small Guns? If so, how will you decide which dialogue goes into which skill? If it's not clear, will I be penalized from a roleplaying standpoint for neglecting one skill in favor of the other? Will each speech check be duplicated (or made into an "or" check), so that it doesn't matter if I'm high in either Big Guns or Small Guns? Would I then be penalized if I used both now, because skill points that previously went into one tree are now going into two, meaning I might not be able to take advantage of checks that I previously would be able to? Will it be a sum of both, meaning the skill checks will get much easier, throwing off the balance? Will you add entirely new speech checks for Big Guns, writing fanfiction?

Until there is an adequate answer to this question I would be inclined to say no to Big Guns' official inclusion. New Vegas was written around it being just "Guns" and because this doesn't matter narratively in Fallout 3 (as far as I know), and it matters a great deal in New Vegas, it makes sense to me to not have to worry about such considerations. It's far simpler to just stick with Guns and backport it to Fallout 3 because there's no narrative difference there, while porting Big Guns into New Vegas introduces a lot of questions about how roleplay will be handled.

Breaking mods shouldn't even be a consideration to begin with. This project is still in alpha, and that is the price of progress.

I have but one humble request: if it is made official, please allow us to optionally switch back.

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This is me talking by myself.

This is me talking by myself. No team input or anything, just my opinion.

The way I see it, if Big Guns makes it to default, TTW should change the Guns skill checks to Small Guns skill checks and replace (or also add) the Guns to Big Guns on those that apply.

There are only 3 guns dialogue checks in the base FNV and 3 in it's DLCs:

Base Fallout New Vegas:

  • 40 Guns to access Alexander's inventory at 188 trading post.
    • Should not change or should add the Big Guns skill to the check too (Shouldn't change if Alexander deals mainly in Small Guns, I can't remember to be honest, I only bought stuff from him once or twice and it was more than 5 years ago xD).
  • 45 Guns and 45 Explosives to train the Misfits for the quest Flags of Our Foul-Ups at Camp Golf.
    • Should not change. We train them to use Grenades (Still Explosives skill) and Service Rifles (Still Small Guns skill).
  • 50 Guns and 60 Survival to receive the Schematics - .44 Magnum, hand load from Jules in North Vegas Square.
    • Should not change. .44 Magnum is a Small Gun.

DLCs:

  • 45 Guns to point out to Ricky that there is no such thing as an 11mm submachine gun.
    • Shouldn't change.
  • 50 Guns to procure a K9000 cyberdog gun, then 75 Guns to receive extra ammunition, from the think tanks of Big MT.
    • Should change to Big Guns, since the K9000 is a Big Gun. We could even change the Courier dialogue to add a "large": "I'd rather have a good old-fashioned large gun.".
  • 50 Guns to convince Dean Domino that you have the skills to defeat the ghost people of the Sierra Madre.
    • This one shouldn't change or add the Big Guns to it too (I am on the fence on this one).

No new Skill checks would be added. Fallout New Vegas does not even have dialogue skill checks for all weapon skills, IIRC.

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I honestly think the game can

I honestly think the game can do without the big guns perk as lore wise to interactions in the game it doesn't do much to my knowledge. Honestly it seemed more like something you should keep optional if anything. I understand some like the idea of Big Guns but i don't see any real point to it since it splits up the weapons. I just think it would be best to leave out of the game. You would have to change a lot of dialouge options from big gun and small gun speech checks in new vegas if you were to add the big guns skill. If anything keep it optional but i don't really care for it. I do like the thread about asking our thoughts on it though. 

What even is a Signature and what the hell do i do with it? - LeoVR

Risewild
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Like I said in the post right

LeopoldVR wrote:

You would have to change a lot of dialouge options from big gun and small gun speech checks in new vegas if you were to add the big guns skill

Like I said in the post right before yours. There is only 6 Guns dialogue checks in FNV and all of the DLCs, and most would (probably) be unchanged. Three of them doesn't make any sense changing, from the remaining 3, 2 can still be unchanged (or just also add Big Guns in addition to the Small Guns check) and only one should be changed to Big Guns and it is to get a free big gun anyway.

So we wouldn't be changing a lot of dialogue checks, probably just 1.

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I believe there's a 45 Guns

I believe there's a 45 Guns check to pistol whip St. Claire in Beyond the Beef. Obviously, that wouldn't be a Big Guns check, you wouldn't be pistol-whipping with a minigun.

For the Ricky dialogue, I'd include that with Big Guns. An expert on large weaponry (and ammunition types), would logically have knowledge about standard ammo types. Just my two cents.

For the Old World Blues dialogue, changing the dialogue to "I'd rather have a big ol' gun." could also work and maybe flow a bit better.

But everything I just said is just nitpicky postulations that are not particularly pertinent to the present perdicament.

When you put it like that, it seems like there are clear and logical ways to handle the skill checks. I'm not sure I personally like it... But I say screw it, you only live once. Throw it in, I say it should be made default. I don't foresee it disrupting anything terribly much and it adds better balance to the Fallout 3 portion of the game (a game designed around big and small guns), and if it includes guns like the AMR it can force the player to make important choices about how they wish to structure their character.

First and foremost you wanna make an experience that's fun to play. The inclusion of Big Guns ties the game more directly with its routes and engages the player with another small layer of roleplay and decision making. Big Guns was never really useful in Fallout 3 from a metagaming standpoint but a lot of things aren't anyway.

Maybe it will break stuff or maybe it will be hard, like some others have said. But you guys know what you're doing. You gotta follow your own vision. I think it introduces a new way to experience New Vegas through the lens of Fallout 3, without disrupting New Vegas's balance terribly much (I don't think that being slightly less overpowered is all that bad), all while adding more depth to your character. Thumbs up.

RoyBatty
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Making some posts for other

Making some posts for other facts to go along with what Risewild posted for speech checks.

Weapons with 100 Skill Requirement (some moved to Big Guns)

Guns (Small and Big)

  • Minigun
  • Riot Shotgun (stays small guns)
  • Anti-Material Rifle
  • Light Machine Gun
  • Marksman Carbine (stays small guns)
  • All-American (stays small guns)
  • Brush Gun (stays small guns)
  • 12.7mm Submachine Gun (stays small guns)
  • CZ57 Avenger
  • Automatic Rifle
  • Bozar
  • Medicine Stick (stays small guns)
  • 12.7mm Submachine Gun (GRA) (stays small guns)
  • Anti Material Rifle (GRA)
  • Eugene

Energy Weapons

  • Gatling Laser
  • Plasma Caster
  • Tesla Cannon
  • Heavy Incinerator
  • Tesla-Beaton Prototype
  • Elijah's Jury Rigged Tesla Cannon
  • Sprtel-Wood 9700
  • The Smitty Special
  • Tesla Cannon Prototype
  • Vengeance
  • Precision Gatling Laser
  • Drone Cannon
  • Drone Cannon Ex-B

Explosives

  • Fatman
  • Grenade Machine Gun
  • Mercy
  • Red Glare
  • Esther
  • Fatman (GRA)
  • Experimental MIRV

Weapons with 75 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • K9000 Cyberdog Gun
  • FIDO (skill 85)
  • Shoulder Mounted Machine Gun

Energy Weapons

  • Arc Welder

Explosives

  • Missile Launcher
  • Annabelle
  • Miss Launcher

Weapons with 50 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • None

Energy Weapons

  • Flamer
  • Cleansing Flame
  • Burn Master
  • Rapid-Torch Flamer
  • Slo-Burn Flamer

Explosives

  • None

Weapons with 25 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • None

Energy Weapons

  • Incinerator

Explosives

  • None

Weapons with 0 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • Rock-It Launcher

Energy Weapons

  • None

Explosives

  • None

The spread is mostly OK, the only issues is 100 skill weapons for Energy and Explosives. I would address this by raising the skill for the Tri-Beam Laser Rifle/Metal Blaster to 100 since these were end game weapons in Fallout 3. Additionally the Alien Blaster, Captain's Sidearm, Firelance and Microwave Emitter could be raised to 100 to give some 100 skill weapons.

Explosives is a bit more difficult, but the role could be filled with C-4 and a couple of the Mad Bomber things like the MFC Cluster or something.

gcafox
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So we're not only switching

So we're not only switching categories but now weapon skill level required as well? I really hate that since it means I can't just take a quick glance at the new vegas wiki to check out what weapons I want to use to plan out a character build. I feel like there's starting to be a lot of feature creep here and it keeps getting farther and farther away than the fairly straightforward "Bring Big Guns back" idea that this all started as. I really hope this thing is optional (or just not done at all).

TAWM
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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

 

Making some posts for other facts to go along with what Risewild posted for speech checks.

Weapons with 100 Skill Requirement (some moved to Big Guns)

Guns (Small and Big)

  • Minigun
  • Riot Shotgun (stays small guns)
  • Anti-Material Rifle
  • Light Machine Gun
  • Marksman Carbine (stays small guns)
  • All-American (stays small guns)
  • Brush Gun (stays small guns)
  • 12.7mm Submachine Gun (stays small guns)
  • CZ57 Avenger
  • Automatic Rifle
  • Bozar
  • Medicine Stick (stays small guns)
  • 12.7mm Submachine Gun (GRA) (stays small guns)
  • Anti Material Rifle (GRA)
  • Eugene

Energy Weapons

  • Gatling Laser
  • Plasma Caster
  • Tesla Cannon
  • Heavy Incinerator
  • Tesla-Beaton Prototype
  • Elijah's Jury Rigged Tesla Cannon
  • Sprtel-Wood 9700
  • The Smitty Special
  • Tesla Cannon Prototype
  • Vengeance
  • Precision Gatling Laser
  • Drone Cannon
  • Drone Cannon Ex-B

Explosives

  • Fatman
  • Grenade Machine Gun
  • Mercy
  • Red Glare
  • Esther
  • Fatman (GRA)
  • Experimental MIRV

Weapons with 75 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • K9000 Cyberdog Gun
  • FIDO (skill 85)
  • Shoulder Mounted Machine Gun

Energy Weapons

  • Arc Welder

Explosives

  • Missile Launcher
  • Annabelle
  • Miss Launcher

Weapons with 50 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • None

Energy Weapons

  • Flamer
  • Cleansing Flame
  • Burn Master
  • Rapid-Torch Flamer
  • Slo-Burn Flamer

Explosives

  • None

Weapons with 25 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • None

Energy Weapons

  • Incinerator

Explosives

  • None

Weapons with 0 skill that would be moved to Big Guns

Guns

  • Rock-It Launcher

Energy Weapons

  • None

Explosives

  • None

The spread is mostly OK, the only issues is 100 skill weapons for Energy and Explosives. I would address this by raising the skill for the Tri-Beam Laser Rifle/Metal Blaster to 100 since these were end game weapons in Fallout 3. Additionally the Alien Blaster, Captain's Sidearm, Firelance and Microwave Emitter could be raised to 100 to give some 100 skill weapons.

Explosives is a bit more difficult, but the role could be filled with C-4 and a couple of the Mad Bomber things like the MFC Cluster or something.

 


Honestly for the energy weapons the Metal Blaster is just a laser shotgun at the end of the day so upping it's sway really isn't going to do much of anything...that and while powerful it's not the most powerful energy weapon and I don't even know if I would consider it a truly end game weapon in terms of power.  The Metal Blaster is also something most players are going to grab at low levels considering the fact most experienced players play the Pitt at low levels because playing it at higher levels is a cake walk.  While very powerful at level 5 at level 30 it's not the most powerful energy weapon in TTW.    

 

Really the ultra powerful fallout 3 energy weapons are the alien weaponry.  The Alien Blaster and Destablizer make mincemeat out of everything.  The first time I played Old World Blues I brought the Destablizer with me and I killed the  X-42 Giant Roboscorpion instantly.  The alien weaponry should be energy weapon skill 100 and the rest of the energy weapons more or less left alone.  

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@gcafox Rebalancing weapons

@gcafox Rebalancing weapons would seem to be a given if someone wanted to re-introduce a skill that NV doesn't recognize. To bring it back, and just move a few things into it without rebalancing the original energy/small guns, could very well lead to progression issues. Ultimately, TTW with all of it's optionals, is growing into something that is greater than it's constitute parts; and I think that's fine. I'm all but certain NV purest wont be left in the rain, but if the team wants to innovate or cross-port features I don't think half-assing things is the way to go.

Also, the wiki isn't the end-all be-all when it comes to being factually correct. If you're mad that the wiki might not be right, boy do I have news for you...

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It *may* affect 2 weapons in

It *may* affect 2 weapons in Fallout New Vegas in terms of skill requirement, one which is a wild wasteland only weapon which is the Alien Blaster.

All the other weapons listed are Fallout 3 exclusive weapons and have nothing to do with the wiki or how you currently build, because weapon skill requirements were not in Fallout 3.

As for the Tri-Beam/Metal Blaster being end game weapons, they were in Fallout 3 pretty much. We've discussed un-nerfing the energy weapons too, but that's a different subject entirely. But yes I can see the complaints already so will reconsider and stick to the alien weapons and microwave emitter.

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I could see the "flamer"

I could see the "flamer" series being moved into Big Guns. It would open up a bunch of mid tier options, plus I feel like the flamer weapons are less "energy" weapons so much as they are "heavy" weapons. As for bumping the Reqs for the alien weapons and microwave emitter, I say go for it; at least within the context of including the Big Guns skill.

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I'm sure you can guess how I

I'm sure you can guess how I feel about changing vanilla FNV weapon stats around, given my prior statements on this thread, but I'm going to chime in anyway; it's not a good idea. The Tri-beam laser is not end game in FNV, and making it take 100 skill would feel really artificial and strange on the Mojave side. The Mad Bomber stuff is already heavily skill and perk gated, IMO, and making it take 100 skill would make most people never use it. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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I'll say this one more time

I'll say this one more time so people understand, TTW is not New Vegas with Fallout 3 as a DLC anymore. You can keep playing 2.9.4b if you want that or go back to playing RFCW if you can find it.

TTW is moving forward into a state where it is integrated on much deeper levels, if that means changing balance or editing something in both wastelands then so be it. My ultimate goal is to do just that, but in stages so that it's an easier transition for people. I have a vision and as a developer I want to see where it leads. If others don't like that vision then that's ok with me.

Seeing as how these changes are going to be optional, I'll balance it how I think is best while taking into consideration valid arguments otherwise that make sense. I'm going to ignore any "because it's wrong" or "I don't like it just because I fail to see the benefit" arguments.

Don't get me started on FNV balancing at all... there is plenty broken about it.

Make a poll and see who uses Mad Bomber, I bet less than 1% of players do.

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

 

...TTW is not New Vegas with Fallout 3 as a DLC anymore. You can keep playing 2.9.4b if you want that or go back to playing RFCW if you can find it.

TTW is moving forward into a state where it is integrated on much deeper levels...

I think this is the best comment I've seen on this matter, thank you for the clarification on TTW's future. I was still under the impression that it WAS still a FO3 mod added into FNV, but now I can see that it is much more. This move is a well needed one and I personally see the benefits of it going that way.

 

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Yeah I've tried to push the

Yeah I've tried to push the idea that it's neither Fallout 3 nor Fallout New Vegas, but it's Tale of Two Wastelands many times. It's just not possible to make one game or the other follow the rules of the other verbatim or it just falls apart. On the surface Fallout 3 was never balanced for players to be level 50. On the other side New Vegas was similarly not balanced for that however the DLC's were, and it was not balanced for the crazy OP weapons of Fallout 3 or it's perks (MIRV for ex). Similarly many of the creatures in New Vegas are weak in comparison to Fallout 3, except for a few like Deathclaws and Rad Scorpions.

I will open other threads discussing these things later as they arise, as was mentioned this is planned for stages. The next stage is likely Energy Weapons, aforementioned balancing for level 50 and GRA integration of some sort.

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It's both games combined so

It's both games combined so it might as well be treated as a hybrid of both with the best features from both games used.  Yeah I'm definitely onboard with that and that's why I support things like big guns being brought back as default since TTW should be treated as a hybrid of New Vegas and Fallout 3 and not Fallout 3 mod for New Vegas or Fallout 3 2.0  Bring back what is cool from Fallout 3 that's not in New Vegas and keep what is good about New Vegas in TTW and make changes where needed.  

 

I'm curious about level 50 balancing in the capital wasteland and mojave...Deathclaw behemoths?...Glowing One Reavers?...Sentry Bot Mk10?...special ops Talon Mercs?  At that level especially running a lot of mods you need something crazy to give you a challenge.      

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How easy would it be to have

How easy would it be to have optional? What I mean is would it be something you could have it one way by default and have a small patch to do the opposite? My stance on these things usually runs back down to why people are still playing and modding this game. The choice. I personally; and I doubt I'm alone, feel that the ability for the user to make the game into what they want is important. I really wouldn't mind having the skill be on either side. However I feel its important that there is an option to the user to decide for themselves.

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

I'll say this one more time so people understand, TTW is not New Vegas with Fallout 3 as a DLC anymore. You can keep playing 2.9.4b if you want that or go back to playing RFCW if you can find it.

TTW is moving forward into a state where it is integrated on much deeper levels, if that means changing balance or editing something in both wastelands then so be it. My ultimate goal is to do just that, but in stages so that it's an easier transition for people. I have a vision and as a developer I want to see where it leads. If others don't like that vision then that's ok with me.

Seeing as how these changes are going to be optional, I'll balance it how I think is best while taking into consideration valid arguments otherwise that make sense. I'm going to ignore any "because it's wrong" or "I don't like it just because I fail to see the benefit" arguments.

Don't get me started on FNV balancing at all... there is plenty broken about it.

Make a poll and see who uses Mad Bomber, I bet less than 1% of players do.

I understand that. My problem is thatI am not sure what TTW *actually is* now; that has not been made very clear, there is no "mission statment" or "prime directive" for the project, as far as a I am aware. I am also not sure how much of this deeper integration is planned for the 3.0 release; you have mentioned stages, but I don't really know how much change you are comfortable putting into one single update. It is difficult to give feedback to the TTW team without knowing what your goals and guiding principles for the project actually are. I am shooting in the dark, so to speak. I am sure you *have* a vision as a developer, but you have not fully articulated that vision so that the general users of the mod can help you realize it. There used to be LOTS of official forums for cross-content discussions, and Jax made his "vision" for TTW very clear to everyone, even if they didn't agree with him. I tried to give him feedback at achieving his goals. I will gladly do the same for you, once I understand what your goal actually is in more concrete terms. "Deeper integration" is rather vague and doesn't give me much of a guideline when providing feedback. In what situation is Fallout 3 prioritized? In what situation is FNV prioritized? How important is game balance? Lore friendliness? Do you want to maintain the distinct tone and feel of each game, or blend them seamlessly so they seem like the same game? Etc.

It would really help if there was an official post outlining:

*The long term goals of TTW; what is it meant to be whe it's done?

*What are the "rules" of TTW; what is off limits, if anything, to the projeect?

*What are the goalposts for the TTW 3.0 release? How much more are you adding? 

*Which changes are going to be optional and which changes are going to be core? How is this decided?

EDIT:

Basically, what that wall of text is meant to say is that I don't know how to critique TTW as anything *other* than "New Vegas with Fallout 3 as a DLC."

I know what TTW *was* and what it *IS NOT* but not what it currently actually *is* So.. what is it? 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

 

I'll say this one more time so people understand, TTW is not New Vegas with Fallout 3 as a DLC anymore. You can keep playing 2.9.4b if you want that or go back to playing RFCW if you can find it.

TTW is moving forward into a state where it is integrated on much deeper levels, if that means changing balance or editing something in both wastelands then so be it. My ultimate goal is to do just that, but in stages so that it's an easier transition for people. I have a vision and as a developer I want to see where it leads. If others don't like that vision then that's ok with me.

Seeing as how these changes are going to be optional, I'll balance it how I think is best while taking into consideration valid arguments otherwise that make sense. I'm going to ignore any "because it's wrong" or "I don't like it just because I fail to see the benefit" arguments.

Don't get me started on FNV balancing at all... there is plenty broken about it.

Make a poll and see who uses Mad Bomber, I bet less than 1% of players do.

best comment i read in here for a very long time

make this "your game" and "not everyone elses"

i am all for the best of both worlds.

i would like to see:

big guns back

reputation in fo3 (i know there is an optional for that for a long time now, but it doesnt seem to be perfect as of yet)

gun runners in the capital wasteland (or atleast the weapons integrated in leveled lists)

maybe some cut content back if its possible, like being able to speak with the 3 raider bosses in new vegas, with some kind of disguise

being able to disguise as enclave in capital wasteland

and ofcourse some balancing of both games to compliment each other

a patch for project california(former project brasil), a patch for the frontier

 

 

but at the and of the day its up to you(ttw-team)

and i am more than happy for everything you guys already gave us and i cant wait to see where you will go with this in the future

thank you all, who worked on this, i can't praise you enough

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Going to start a new topic

Going to start a new topic since this one has pretty much run its course and the discussion has shifted.

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Getting back on topic,

Getting back on topic,

Big Guns should not be brought back. It's a relic, that's needs to be kept as far away from NV as possible.

Fallout has always had problems with excessive skills since the very beginning. Gambling was a skill on par with shooting things, in a game with hundreds of enemies and one small casino. Reducing the number of skills isn't a bad thing (though it obviously needs to be accompanied by skill point and advancement limits, which NV does not have enough of with DLC).

In NV, there are 5 weapon skills, Guns, EW, Explosives, Melee, and Unarmed. The 2 main combat skills that have been removed from the previous games are Big Guns, and Throwing. Both of these have very good reasons to be removed. They overlap with other categories far too much. In NV, I know exactly which weapon will go in which category. Weapons which use conventual ammunition are Guns, weapons which use energy cells are Energy Weapons, Explosives blow up or use blowing up ammunition, Melee encompasses traditional close combat weaponry, as well as throwing because it fits rather well, and Unarmed is all manner of physical attacks (unarmed and melee are very similar by the definitions, and there would be no harm in merging them, besides endurance losing a skill).

Moving to the missing skills, Throwing, which I believe there is actually a better argument for bringing back, overlaps heavily with explosives. What is a hand grenade? It is a thrown explosive. That level of overlap is a problem. I would have no problem with removing explosives, as landmines don't particularly need a skill, and thrown explosives can fit under Throwing, while rifles and launchers could then be added into a restored Big Guns. Just restoring Big Guns without a total skill revamp though, is a big problem. With explosives still in the game, Big Guns has an identity crisis. All of the weaponry that got moved to and added to Explosives in NV would be removed, substantially weakening the skill. Having a skill entirely devoted to throwing grenades and placing mines really isn't that fun, especially when the other combat skills all have a much greater level of utility. Explosives already has the most limited usage cases of combat skills at low level, and adding Big Guns back just creates another skills with the same problem, as well as reducing Explosives late game utility.

New Vegas doesn't have perfect balance, but it strikes a fair balance between it's different skills, a much better balance than Fallout 3. Explosives is a good support skill throughout the game, that avoids most of big guns pitfalls. All 4 other combat skills are very viable throughout the game. Adding Big guns massively upsets this balance. Melee and Unarmed remain valuable throughout the game, Guns and Energy Weapons are replaced by Big Guns during the end game, while Big Guns are non-existent or found in terrible condition for the early and much of the mid game. Explosives is greatly reduced in power, removing much of it's late game support utility, and making it next to useless.

Basically, Big Guns cannot work in NV as it stands now. NV may not be that balanced, but it is way tighter than Fallout 3, and attempts to mimic Fallout 3's style will only hurt both games

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Fallout isn't ARMA. It's

Fallout isn't ARMA. It's supposed to be fun, not realistic and also somewhat silly at times.

I don't see where a missile or rocket launcher would take the same skill as throwing a grenade either, so that point doesn't make any sense to me if you want to use that angle.

Actually that line of thinking is what brought Fallout 4's system, no skills at all and just perks. I personally don't find that system that fun.

Throwing couldn't be brought back, it was replaced with survival.

It is true that a lot of the weaponry in explosives would be pulled back out, but not all of it. There are still the grenade rifles and launchers. Frankly those could fit into Guns too since they are rifles that shoot large center fire cartridges, as a counter argument.

Conversely the Incinerators and Flamers are not energy weapons, but Pyro weapons to which there is no skill for them anymore as they were Big Guns originally. They don't make any sense being in the Energy Weapons category. Same as molotov's don't belong in the explosives category. So there is always going to be some crossover.

I'll make some charts with weapon counts and skill levels to get a better idea of the spread of things with and without Big Guns.

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I know throwing can't be

I know throwing can't be brought back :(

I'm not arguing for realism. I don't know where you got that from. My argument is entirely about game balance and progression.

Explosives is devalued by Big Guns, so I don't like restoring it. Fire weapons could be Explosives as well, I don't care. Realism doesn't matter, but they are fine in Energy Weapons as well

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Guns, Explosives and Energy

Guns, Explosives and Energy Weapons are all devalued by Big Guns, explosives doesn't take as large a hit as Energy Weapons does. That was clear by the list of weapons I posted above. I've already said this will be optional as I have to nip at least one trait from previous games and then there is the issue of the GOAT not having a survival combination, and the stuff from Doc Mitchell not having a Big Guns combination. Such a change is not just a trivial slap and paste it together thing.

Can it be made to work? Yes I believe so, absolutely. Will everyone want to use it? Of course not.

Some people will love it, others will hate it, such as it goes with anything we do.

Again I wanted feedback on how best to make it work, not how much people hate the idea.

I'm not really getting that kind of feedback.

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I think the explosives are no

I think the explosives are no more devalued by guns thank real world grenades are devalued by rocket launchers.

An average gamer gets a chance to even further diversify the type of character they are making, which is always a bonus. 
Additionally, I personally disliked that what used to be "big guns" became top skill "guns" in NV. It feels the same as training a character in archery, only to advance towards siege crossbows after being proclaimed absolute master.
It is ridiculous.
Big Guns have a completely separate and situational use in comparison an average Chinese Assault Rifle or a Service Rifle. A minigun is not a more hard hitting version of an assault carabine, a Gatling Laser is no Laser Rifle, and a Nuka Cocktail has radically different applications than a Fatman.

In terms of logic, Explosives make much less sense than Big Guns. Indeed, throwing is much more applicable for weapons in that section. But that right there is very much a personal opinion.

 

EDIT: On how to make Big Guns work better, I personally believe that the hard hitting nature of Big Guns needs to be balanced by well considered drawbacks. The most obvious one would be speed of movement and weight of the weapon itself. Difficult to imagine a character running around with it like they would with a hunting rifle.

A different option, to differentiate Big Guns builds from character builds focused on Energy Weapons or Small Guns, it could be tied to a different Special stat, to represent the unwieldiness and lack of precision of such weapons. Tie it to strength, perhaps. The way I see it, this would also have some implications for the characters. If they focus on Agility-based skills and raise Agility, it also invites higher Sneak. While having a Big Guns Strength-based character invites more focus on Melee as a secondary skill. Or A Primary Melee character, with a complimentary Big Guns skill.

One way or another, even if none of the things I brought up wind up being of any use, the point stands that the best way to not have Big Guns as super-skill to Explosives, Small Guns and Energy Weapons, is to make it sufficiently different in terms of gameplay and requirements.

 

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As far as making Big Guns

As far as making Big Guns work in TTW if brought back Fallout 3 is already setup for it...New Vegas that would need some work starting the game off in the Mojave...just like how survival needs some TLC for it to work in Fallout 3 which it was not designed for.  The DLCs are hit or miss with supporting big guns just like how they are hit or miss with energy weapons or guns.  Old World Blues and Lonesome Road actually supports Big Guns right off the bat where as Honest Hearts doesn't and the Automatic Rifle in Dead Money has very little ammo so Big Guns skill would be in the same boat as guns currently are in Dead Money.  Also Big Guns isn't really supported in Point Lookout (other than bringing one in), a good chunk of Operation Anchorage and you can't get a big gun right off the bat entering The Pitt and those are Fallout 3 DLCs.

 

Really just add the schematic for the rock-it launcher to chets vendor inventory in the Goodsprings general store with the parts to build it would solve the problem of not having big gun starter weapon in the Mojave.  It's the same solution Bethesda did with giving Moria the schematic for the rock-it launcher in Megaton so you have a starter weapon for Big Guns.  As far as Honest Hearts go just add the parts to make a Rock-it Launcher in the different buildings or just don't even bother since players can bring a Big Gun into Zion if they want to.  

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I think a good way to have

I think a good way to have overlap between Big Guns/Small Guns would be to have perks be added that increases your proficiency, since you can't have a weapon be in 2 skills at a time.

 

Like say if you have 100 Big Guns and 100 Small Guns, your better at using the Guns that use conventional ammo (like the AMR or Auto Rifle). That way your knowledge with the 5mm Minigun is tied with the 5mm assault carbine, or the 10mm SMMG is tied to the 10mm Pistol/SMG. Basically, Pistol/rifle cartridges being tied with each other.

 

Same applies with energy weapons in the Big Guns stat, like the EC Gatling Laser being tied to the EC Laser RCW, or the MC Plasma Caster being tied with the MC Plasma Rifle. That or just retrofitting Laser Commander/Plasma Spaz

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I don't know if Roy would be

I don't know if Roy would be willing to add such perks, but I think that would certainly be interesting, balanced, and rewarding from a role-paying point off view! Sort of similar to how Fallout 4 uses rifle/pistol/auto/heavy categories, but also uses energy/ballistic divisions as well. There are magazine perks that benefit all energy guns, regardless of their size category, encouraging specializing in matching weaponry, such as minigun with combat rifle, and laser gating with laser rifle, rather than ignoring damage type entirely.

It would make a cool mod, not sure if it fits with the scope of TTW or not, since it would mean adding new perks from scratch. You could even go as far as to actually use magazines like Fallout 4 does. 

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No new perks outside of one

No new perks outside of one trait for Big Guns, which would be from Fallout 1, 2 or Tactics.

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