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Newgirlde
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With RoyBatty's definition of

With RoyBatty's definition of Big Guns as well as the assurance that incompatabilities are a non-issue I would very much like to see it added back in as a default.

The list of weapons makes sense to me using RoyBatty's definition and reasoning and I very much agree with him.

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I don't typically use "big

I don't typically use "big guns" but I'll throw in my 2 cents. 

Personally I'd make big guns ANY gun that requires two hands to wield. If it's cowboy or military there are perks for those. You're a vault dweller that becomes a courier. You didn't grow up as an outdoors hunter type or farmer or soldier so you should have to spend some points to use those weapons. The points after all is putting a numerical value on what you've learned. The only exception that one could argue is the flamer, point and click. But the argument could still be made for it to reflect not BBQing yourself. 

IF it could be made for overlap ie Plasma Caster is boosted by Big Guns and Energy I'd be all for it. 

Two handed weapons are going to be harder to use same as military will be harder to use than hunting, but not sure if the skills could reflect on the same types as the perks do (cowboy vs grunt)

My games I try to default to the more real the better (within Fallout Mythos and immersion)

Either way I'm here to play. 

If life is but a test, where's the damn answer key?!?!?

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It seems arbitrary to split

It seems arbitrary to split guns into 3 categories instead of buffing big guns altogether. If you meet the strength requirement to wield them, you should be able to wreck shit with them.

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H1ms3lf wrote:

H1ms3lf wrote:

 

I'm gonna be a bit bothersome and voice a small concern between everything that's "optional" or "by default".

It is usually better to have the stuff that everyone will (or should) be using to be the default. I'm not voicing pro/con any optionals, just wanna highlight what would be the best approach, player base wise. TTW policy conflicts with that sometimes.

There's supposed to be a "right way" (AKA best way), not literally, but a way that the main design was planned/executed/tested taking into account that set of conditions, which speaks volumes since a TON of time was spent tailoring the game to fit better into this set of conditions.

Like (I guess) most people, I try to always abide by what is default, since it is usually best/safer, but even above that: Default implies the way IT IS meant to be.

Back to this big guns deal, I'm not educated enough in TTW ways to make a decision, hope you guys can make the best of it =]

The main designed of Fallout New Vegas about removing Big Guns was because there wasn't many weapons for the skill and there wasn't low tier weapons either. But with the addition of some FNV DLCs + Fallout 3 and it's DLCs there are a much greater choice of Big Guns and there are low tier available (Rock-it Launcher)

 

DarthDaedric wrote:

 

The Plasma Caster was not a Big Gun in Fallout 1/2 and should not be on that list. If you're going to do this, please keep it an energy weapon.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_rifle_(Fallout)

 

If your goal is consistency then the classic Plasma Rifle shouldn't be a big gun. It never has been and it doesn't make any sense to just change it to one now.

Overall, I really don't like the idea of restoring the Big Gun skill. It's totally superfluous with the strength requirements.

That doesn't really work when FNV already broke the consistency. In Fallout and Fallout 2 it weights 12lbs, in FNV it weights 20lbs, it is definitely a heavy weapon that weights almost twice as much as in the classic games.

tghs wrote:

 

It seems arbitrary to split guns into 3 categories instead of buffing big guns altogether. If you meet the strength requirement to wield them, you should be able to wreck shit with them.

The thing is that in TTW, it is easy to max all skills to 100 even before reaching max level. Having another skill would balance that. So it is not really that arbitrary in a way.

At the moment people have been using mods to deal with the get all maxed before level 50, like skills 250 limit or other similar mods. But it is a bad design to have TTW not deal with it itself.

 

About compatibility, it was said already several times that this is not an issue. Also another benefit of having Big Skills by default is that we can revert the GOAT results to it's vanilla status (it had Big Guns answers), the bobblehead and the skill books to their original places (so it's closer to the FO3 experience) not to mention it seems like it would also be better for converting FO3 mods that have big guns or affect the skill (although I am not sure).

 

I am playing the devils advocate here just so people can get a different perspective, I don't have a preference to be honest. I am a melee/unarmed character fan and the only time I would use a weapon that would fit in this discussion would be when I wipe a LMG to kill some enemy out of range, so it doesn't matter if it is Guns or Big Guns to me because I wouldn't be investing on either skill to begin with xD

Keep your opinions coming, the team loves to hear from you .

 

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The plasma caster is the same

The plasma caster is the same Plasma Rifle that was in Fallout 1/2. It was renamed to avoid confusion with the Fallout 3 plasma rifle. In the original fallouts, it wasn't a rifle like in 3 either, but it was an energy weapon and always has been. The Gatling Laser was simply a reskin of the minigun so that's why it made sense as a heavy weapon.

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I for one am always happy for

I for one am always happy for more options. So long as the list of affected weapons is comprehensive of both wastelands weapons, I'm game. I personally would want the STR reqs to remain, being as I see one's ability to actually pickup a weapon and pull it's trigger as a different thing from one's proficiency/knowledge about those items.

 

As an aside, I understand that almost all of the ramblings about compatibility are just baseless fears, but Tricky's post about the survival bobblehead got me thinking; if you do end up implementing this, would editing the bobblehead display to accommodate an additional collectable be in the ever mutating "to-do" list as well? I know it's purely cosmetic, and probably a pain in the ass to do for something so trivial, but it'd be a nice touch. Certainly not a deal breaker though.

 

All in all, either way you folks decide to go with this, I'm sure 3.X will be pure gold.

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DarthDaedric wrote:

DarthDaedric wrote:

The plasma caster is the same Plasma Rifle that was in Fallout 1/2. It was renamed to avoid confusion with the Fallout 3 plasma rifle. In the original fallouts, it wasn't a rifle like in 3 either, but it was an energy weapon and always has been. The Gatling Laser was simply a reskin of the minigun so that's why it made sense as a heavy weapon.

To be honest the Gatling Laser in Fallout 1 and 2 was also a energy weapon and not a Big Gun. But in FO3 the Big Guns definition changed, TTW is a fusion of both FNV and FO3 so I think if we implement the Big Guns skill again, it should follow the FO3 Big Guns definition and not be a mix (but that is my personal opinion, just like all of you share yours).

Again, I point out that in FNV the Plasma Caster is not the same as the classic games since it is almost twice as heavy as the ones from Fallout 1 and 2. To me it makes no sense a weapon that weights 20lbs to not be a big gun though, specially because it handles (you grab and hold it the same way, you aim the same way, etc) the same way as the Minigun or a Grenade machinegun ingame. If the Gatling Laser is included, I don't understand why the Plasma Caster shouldn't.

Today I woke up to play devil's advocate .

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I support the idea now that I

I support the idea now that I know it won't cause any compatibility issues. I too am trying to advocate for people who are against it.

It sounds like a wise design choice for having something else to skill up, sure, but if too many levels is such an issue why not increase all the skill caps instead?

Either way, I'd rather be playing TTW than Fallout 4 for hundreds of reasons so I'm just adding to the discussion :P

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tghs wrote:

tghs wrote:

It sounds like a wise design choice for having something else to skill up, sure, but if too many levels is such an issue why not increase all the skill caps instead?

People have tried again and again to do it, but what do you do with lockpick, speech, science or any other non weapon skill over 100? There's no mechanism in the game to make use of it.

The plasma caster is a big gun to me, it's 2handhandle, weighs a lot, str req high. In Fallout 1 and 2 as Rise said it weighed 12 and the Turbo plasma weighed 14 and both had a 6 str requirement.

Speaking of str requirements, all weapons in the game have a str requirement, we would not alter that.

The survivial bobblehead would have an extra space made for it on the stand in the front row center. We'd have to figure out a new place to put it to find in the world. In addition to that a Big Guns magazine will be needed for the magazine system. The scout handbooks and lads life magazines will also need new places to be put in the world so the 30 Handy Flamethrower Recipes book and new Big Guns magazines can be put in the original positions.

What Rise says is true about the goat, and there is some Big Guns skill checks too. Also mods would indeed be easier to convert (which is a reason I've restored other things partially) and those are definitely Pros.

Another pro is that many people use TTW purely to play Fallout 3 in a more stable engine. Over the last year I've listened to them to make TTW more to their liking without making how TTW already works different for those who are used to it as is. It's setup in such a way that people can tailor the experience how they like. This would be yet another one of those things to allow people to tailor their experience.

Changing all 2 handed weapons to Big Guns is a big no, and as already stated multiple skills cannot effect the same weapon.

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If we're gonna move plasma

If we're gonna move plasma casters and gatling lasers to big guns why not introduce a perk, something like "heavy energy weapon specialist" requiring like 100 in energy weapons and 50 in big guns? it would be a decent compromise to allow an energy weapons character to use said weapons without having to max out the big guns skill entirely.

 

The perk would allow you to use those weapons as if you had 100 points in big guns, it shouldnt give any extra bonuses or it would probably make them OP.

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If it were at all possible, I

If it were at all possible, I would prefer Big Guns skill to be by default a bonus effect (Like a new levelled perk granted automatically upon reaching frex each full 20 points in Big Guns skill) added on top of pre-existing FNV weapon skills (to make big guns more practical/powerful to use) for just the Big Guns weapons listed, but since this is apparently not possible, I'd have to vote for optional.

Plasma Caster in F3/FNV seems definitely to be a perfect candidate for the Big Guns list IMHO.. LMG, Bozar, BAR and AMR being much more borderline cases - You do use them a lot like an assault rifle or a sniper rifle, just with higher Strength requirements. No big deal either way though IMHO, as even the default FNV weapon skill categories are quite wide and abstracted in their scope - Most important thing here is to let the player know precisely what skill is used for each weapon, otherwise there might be some confusion.

 

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paragonskeep wrote:

paragonskeep wrote:

Personally I'd make big guns ANY gun that requires two hands to wield. 

That plus being a Big Weapon to start with (requires decent strength and are arguably ankward/slow, not exactly ease of use), as many weapons may require two hands but still be relatively easy to handle.

I would find it neat if the STR requirement could change to a slow % effect based on player strength, for example if X weapons requires 7 strength to use properly and player has 5, he can still use it but will get a 20% slower move/aim/reload while using that weapon, whereas a player with 3 STR would get say a 40% slow. Altough that may be hard to code and keep track/update on a real time basis (which means script heavy stuff which I'm normally against).
 

Risewild wrote:

The main designed of Fallout New Vegas about removing Big Guns was because there wasn't many weapons for the skill and there wasn't low tier weapons either. But with the addition of some FNV DLCs + Fallout 3 and it's DLCs there are a much greater choice of Big Guns and there are low tier available (Rock-it Launcher)


Yo Rise :), I was talking more about TTW (since TTW is a new game in itself ^^) and the way some optionals could/should instead become defaults and some defaults be moved to optionals :P

Compulsive post editor and CEO for the ENDLESS WAVES OF BAD DOGGIE!!
Currently trying to get the FWE Wasteland Explorer bike to work in TTW =X

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People have tried again and

RoyBatty wrote:

People have tried again and again to do it, but what do you do with lockpick, speech, science or any other non weapon skill over 100? There's no mechanism in the game to make use of it.

This problem kinda came up in Oblivion.  Mods came to the rescue:

That second mod actually triggers a new quest when your skill is high enough.  Of course, it'd mean somebody would have to invent something new, and its probably outside of TTW's scope.

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Just my two cents.

Just my two cents.

Separating ranged weapons as Big/Energy/Small Guns seems controversial as Big Guns are defined by size while others by nature of their damaging factor. So I would propose another classification:

Pistols/Semi-automatic rifles/Automatic Rifles/Two-hand handle weapons/Two-hand launchers/Grenades and mines. And with a separate skill for each category.

Yes, it looks very similar to Fallout 4, but this classification, at least, is not controversial in its basis.

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I would absolutely vote

I would absolutely vote against bringing big guns back. I want to use Big Weapons now and then if the need arises (Bomb Evergreen Mills to hell with Mininuke from above), but I wouldn't want to invest points into it. This will just prevent me from ever using big guns again. I think this was also the reason why the developers removed it in FNV.

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Yossarian wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

 

I would absolutely vote against bringing big guns back. I want to use Big Weapons now and then if the need arises (Bomb Evergreen Mills to hell with Mininuke from above), but I wouldn't want to invest points into it. This will just prevent me from ever using big guns again. I think this was also the reason why the developers removed it in FNV.

Like I said before, they removed Big Guns because there was only a few weapons for it in FNV and because they thought the weapons were too powerful and didn't want to make lower tier weapons for the skill. But in TTW with the addition of all the FNV DLCs + FO3 and it's DLCs we have a huge list of weapons that can be Big Guns and this includes lower tier ones too.

Josh Sawyer:

When I was looking at Big Guns for F:NV, I considered that the list of weapons was small compared to any other weapon category and several of the weapons arguably belonged (or at least could be easily categorized) elsewhere. Moving the Big Guns to different weapon skills and dissolving the Big Guns skill would allow weapons like the minigun to remain as a powerful top tier weapon without needing to invent low-tier "Big Guns"

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Ok I wasn't aware there are

Ok I wasn't aware there are enough low tier Big Guns available to make this feasible. I guess it comes all back to the execution and balance. For me, the main requirement to make it fit into the game would be to have it available as a meaningful weapons skill starting from low levels, so I could tag it and have other supporting skills without having to tag another weapon skill in order to survive. In my opinion none of the previous games were able to do this. Also in the classic games the big guns skill wasn't well done. That's why I'm skeptical. But If you're able to implement it properly, then it also could be a nice addition to build diversity. After all, every skill, that is not integrated into the game don't serve any purpose. An issue, that many modern RPGs struggle with.

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Sounds interesting to be

Sounds interesting to be honest. I can't relate much to it since I never used the Big Guns perk in Fallout 3. FNV just had a skill for Guns in general + Strength requirement. I prefered it like this. In fact I often only skilled Energy Weapons and Melee Weapons because I hated to skill both Small Guns and Big Guns to properly use them. FO4 brought big guns back in some sense of being perks but it made sense there since the whole skill tree is different.

Beside, Melee or Energy Weapons were also not divided into small and big. It just doesn't make much sense to me in general, especially with the Strength requirement now.

Cant say anything about FO1, 2 and Tactics. Never played them much since the gameplay doesn't appeal to me.

I would say, make it optional or not at all. Forcing such a change on the players might turn some off from TTW. Also I actually do worry that it will be a hassle to implement it back. Especially when I think of Mod compability... Pretty much no custom weapons from FNV would be affected by it, unless someone makes a damn patch for TTW for every single weapon. Sounds like a huge pain in the ass to me. But most here say its easy? But even if it is, I don't really want this skill being forced on me by default.

I don't need a difference between Small and Big guns, therefore I don't need Big Guns back, especially not by default! At least my point of view. So that is a no for me. Or make it optional.

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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

Another pro is that many people use TTW purely to play Fallout 3 in a more stable engine. Over the last year I've listened to them to make TTW more to their liking without making how TTW already works different for those who are used to it as is. It's setup in such a way that people can tailor the experience how they like. This would be yet another one of those things to allow people to tailor their experience.

As an option, that makes sense -- I just feel that TTW is TTW first, and Fallout 3 remastered second. I'm not against an optional, I just think the default should be NV oriented

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I'd like to throw my own 2

I'd like to throw my own 2 cents in about the return of Big Guns, I say, make it optional, that way those who want it can have it, while those who don't care about it, and would rather not break a bunch of the mods their using, can disable it

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monyarm wrote:

monyarm wrote:

 

I'd like to throw my own 2 cents in about the return of Big Guns, I say, make it optional, that way those who want it can have it, while those who don't care about it, and would rather not break a bunch of the mods their using, can disable it

Please read the OP. The addition of Big Guns wouldn't break anything. Any mods you are currently using would be unaffected because those weapons would still be assigned to the same skill they've always been using. If you wanted one of those mods to use the Big Guns skill you would have to create a patch that changed their skill type, otherwise they'd just keep using Guns, Energy Weapons, or Explosives like they always have.

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Seems redundant considering

Seems redundant considering Nev Vegas (re)introduced strength requirements and peak skill levels for categorizing heavy and light weaponry. The different weapon archetypes are already classified as well as they can be under the limits of the current skill system IMO. Unless we get niche skills added like "small energy pistols" or "big ballistic rifles".                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Reintroducing the "Big Guns" skill wouldn't add anything to the game and would only take away from existing skills.

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Well, I would really love to see this happen! However, I feel that it needs to be optional, since many people prefer the "Energy-Ballistic" dichotmoy over the "Light-Heavy" dichotomy, and this would get in the way of using things like the Gatling Laser with an energy weapons expert.

As an OPTIONAL plugin, that list seems pretty reasonable, EXECPT for the Bozar and AMR. The Bozar is not a big gun at all in my opinion, not even remotely so. It is referred to as the "​The ultimate refinement of the sniper's art" and is an automatic sniper rifle. AMR's and the Bozar are not much different, thematically, from the Gauss Rifle, and it was not a Big Gun in Fallout 3. Big Guns, as a concept, has always been used for large explosive weapons and large automatic non-rifle-grip guns in Fallout, never for large rifles like the Bozar, AMR, or Gauss Rifle. Snipers should be focussed on the GUNS skill, so they can naturall progress from the Hunting Rifle and Sniper Rifle to the AMR. Having a sniper who uses Miniguns and Flamers at lower levels seems rather odd, but that is what moving these rifles over would lead too. 

I am also on the fence about the Light Machine Gun and Automatic Rifle, but both could fit into big guns if you wanted them to. 

Just my 2 cents, since you asked for feedback.

 

I will reiterate OPTIONAL OPTIONAL OPTIONAL!!! I can think of, quite literally, dozens of popular gun and energy weapon builds that would break by moving the flamer, the gatling laser, the AMR, or the Bozar to a different skill. It would UTTERLY change the weapon progression and dynamics of New Vegas, on a level akin to a total overhaul. It is the BAD (in fact, WORST) form of feature creep to put this in the main mod. It would turn people AWAY from TTW if they don't have the time or knowledge to manually reverse these sort of unwanted changes, simply so they can play a vanilla FNV type of character build. For the love of whatever god(or goddess, or whatever) you pray to, do not put this in the main TTW mod.

You need examples of what it would ruin?

*Snipers who want to use the AMR as an end-tier rifle without investing in two whole skill trees.

*Energy perks (Meltdown, etc.) would not work with the Plasma Caster, Flamer, or Gatling Laser.

*Explosive builds relying on Grenade Machine Guns, Fat Man, Rocket Launcher, or anything other than grenades, really. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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As another note it would

As another note it would upset the Skill Requirement for a couple of trees and there wouldn't be any skill 100 weapons in them anymore. This is sort of more what is meant rather than "Sniper" builds because there is already 5 other sniper rifles than the AMR and Bozar.

As for the Bozar and LMG, they are big guns (and any Light Machine Gun) in previous games.

Perks mostly use form lists, so most of the perks would still work like laser commander and plasma spaz, and it's easy enough to patch the other ones.

Explosives would still have grenades, mines, mad bomber, the grenade launcher/rifle and affect explosive rounds like the AMR's. There is already some cross skill stuff with perks. Pyromaniac works this way also with the Zhu-Rong, Shishkebab, Incendiary rounds and Dragon's Breath.

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To be fair, Sniper builds

To be fair, Sniper builds have to get 8 Str to use the AMR in the first place so it makes a certain degree of sense.

Though I'll say it makes more sense for launchers to be Explosives category.

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I would say, 90% of all

I would say, 90% of all weapon mods are clearly guns or melee. I don't think there are a lot of weapons for download, that would fall into category big guns. So, I don't think the argument it would disturb modded content is valid.

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Sniper builds can use an AMR

Sniper builds can use an AMR without an actual Strength attribute of 8.. Get the Perk:Weapon Handling (reduces all weapon strength requirements by 2), install a Strength implant for Strength +1, and the build is set to fully utilize AMR even if the starting Strength was only 5 (average joe). Also, using a weapon with one less Strength than required is not too bad either - Crouch for extra accuracy and aim carefully to compensate for the sway, AMR will still one-shot most targets with the right kind of ammo, especially if one manages to perform a surprise sneak attack.

However, the problem here is if you've got frex a Guns:100 pro-sniper build character with largely neglected Big Guns:20 or so picking up an AMR and noticing that for them it in fact does LESS damage than their regular .308 Sniper Rifle (if AMR indeed uses only Big Guns skill), essentially making an AMR to be a downgrade instead of an upgrade.

This situation, and others like it, are the main reason why I would much prefer Optional status for the Big Guns skill in TTW. Give the choice to the player, whether to play it like regular FNV, or to add the extra complexity of Big Guns skill.

 

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I honestly like the idea of

I honestly like the idea of moving the AMR to Big Guns. With the move comes the availability of having a sniper option for Big Gun builds. I feel as though Big Gun players should be rewarded with weapon options from all the various "sub groups". Yes yes, it's going to "mess up" some builds, but also enable others in the same stroke. I look at it as more of a rebalancing, and anyone who doesn't like their delicate build progression getting "broken" is obviously going to be opposed to such a comprehensive change in their play.

 

Make it optional, but beyond that, I say go for it.

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I've played sniper characters

I've played sniper characters where at low levels, the sway was so bad it limited my rate of fire more than the weapon. It just "encourages" you to put points where it will help your character the quickest. In FO3, that might be big guns and endurance, while in FNV it's guns and strength. It's basically the same game play, you just have to know what skills/abilities affect what.

This is different between FO3 and FNV, so having FO3 under TTW use FNV rules is handy - you only need to learn one set of rules. If you're using TTW to play FO3 in a more stable environment or with extra features like different kinds of ammo, but want the same rules for skills/abilities, then the option of going back to big guns would be appreciated by those folks.

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I've been reading all the

I've been reading all the comments here, and I'd say no, based on the fact that 1) New vegas isn't built around having a Big Guns skill, and 2) There is no way to put weapons under 2 skills that they would overlap with. I think It'd be better to put more time into bugfixing than reviving Big Guns.

Derp

EnderDragonFire
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I am actually very GLAD that

I am actually very GLAD that the TTW team has started to pay attention to the needs of the portion of the community that uses TTW just to play Fallout 3 in a better engine. However, I think it would be wrong to prioritize that group over literally everyone else. Don't start ignoring the people who play TTW as a New Vegas Mod, or the people who play TTW as it's own game, and who want to see little change to New Vegas content. Trying to do right by one group by throwing another group under the bus seems rather insensitive. 

In my humble opinion, this would be the single biggest change to Vegas-side content in all of TTW if it was part of the core mod, and would represent a major change in TTW's design philosophy that many people don't want. It would be an IRREVERSIBLE change of direction for the project that would turn a lot of people away from using it. I really think that anything that so dramatically changes Vegas should stay optional.

TTW has always been (Fallout 3 + FNV) in one game. It has never tried to turn FNV into Fallout 3, wholesale. This is what this change would do, it would undermine New Vegas's gameplay for the sake of accurately reproducing a mechanic from Fallout 3.

Quite frankly, I shouldn't have to patch TTW in XEdit to make New Vegas weapons work like they do in New Vegas. This change would definitely qualify as "making how TTW already works different for those who are used to it as is." It wouldn't just be adding cool new stuff to bring in new players, it would be removing cool old stuff to alienate long term users. 

 

All of this is negated if the plugin is optional. As an optional plugin, it won't negatively affect anyone. So I say just make it optional or don't make it at all. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

RoyBatty
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Everyone is going to hate

Everyone is going to hate something. There's a bunch of people that don't want us fixing the bugs either, didn't want us to change or add anything etc.

It's comes down to this, we seek feedback so we can make informed decisions about what can work and what can't.

Always keep in mind we mod for us first, if we don't we can't keep interested in a project as old as this. I like options myself, and I have created a lot of new ones so I can play the game how I want to play it. These things get mulled over, planned, discussed usually, and where it's not obtrusive they are added by default, or optionally.

Big Guns for me gives yet another option to keep these old games fresh, however as I've said before I don't think it will be by default even if that's easier to do. I've considered also making a "director's cut" of TTW, but I don't want to maintain multiple versions. That said I have a plan to make it so people can tailor TTW to fit their needs and keep the additional plugins down to very few or none at all. We'll see after 3.0 drop if this is viable or not.

There's already a ton of changes which many aren't going to like, and other people will love. That's just how it is, and you're gonna have to open up xEdit and/or GECK and change it if you don't like it. We're not catering to anyone, never have, never will. We will make TTW more accessible to multiple play styles, as this increases replayability and enjoyment, and even crafting a new experience whatever that may be.

tghs
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RoyBatty wrote:

RoyBatty wrote:

We will make TTW more accessible to multiple play styles, as this increases replayability and enjoyment, and even crafting a new experience whatever that may be.

And thank the Atom for that!

I'm one of the folks who thought NV was better than 3 (because I started with Fallout 2 when I was a kid) but I've played through NV so many damn times now it would need something new to keep it fresh. TTW does just that, and regardless of how many features you add, I'll always think this mod is one of the greatest ever devised by the Beth community. 

Hell, I'm only just now posting on this 2+ y/o account because I can't contain my excitement for 3.0! Though at this point I'm not really adding much to the Big Guns discussion so this is probably my cue to leave 

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Whatever. It's your mod, you

It's your mod, you make it how you want it. I am not trying to criticize your decisions, but rather to critique them. You asked for user feedback regarding this potential addition/change to the mod, so I told you what I think about the idea. I am STRONGLY opposed to feature creep in any project, I think that the "KISS" principle of design is important, and that you shouldn't fix what isn't broken. I am not trying to stop your from doing what you think is best with your mod; obviously you are doing this for yourselves first and foremost! 

I am strongly opposed to making this a part of the core mod. That is the feedback I am giving you. You have the right to completely disregard that feedback if you so choose! I only even posted it because you asked for community input. When you say "We're not catering to anyone, never have, never will." it makes me think you might have taken my feedback as a person insult, when it was not intended as such. I don't expect you to cater! I was just telling you what I thought because that's the point of this thread, right? 

I disagree with anyone (not just me!) having to manually remove features from a mod to restore vanilla functionality, when those features are not the main focus of the mod. It's a philosophical standpoint. TTW is not primarily a skill-overhaul mod, so I think those features should be separate and optional, not part of the main mod file. I didn't mean to sound indignant or angry when I said that. That's really just how I feel. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

tawatabak
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i would love to have the big

i would love to have the big guns skill back

more skillz help the roleplay aspect of the game

and even if some people disagree with me on this, i think it should be part of the coregame, because ttw itself already has so many plugins (both coregames and all of the dlc's)

more skillz in general are a cool idea

 

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TTW is an old project and at

TTW is an old project and at this point it needs some spicing up with some feature enhancement, only bug fixing gets boring even for Roy.

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Fair enough, but why make it

Fair enough, but why make it part of the core? What about people who enjoy TTW as it is, but want bug fixes? Should they have to opt out of all future updates just to avoid unwanted feature creep? Surely it is better for the end user to OPT IN to extra content than opt out. More options and a streamlined base is ALWAYS better for the end user, even if it might be harder on the mod maker. Obviously the mod maker has no obligation to provide modularity, but if they are soliciting their users for suggestions, why not make their finished product that much better? Clearly, the community is divided on the issue, and this is a situation where pleasing both groups is entirely possible. 

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

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I would not mind if that was

I would not mind if that was included.Having the big guns skill back would make the Fallout 3 part more Fallout 3.But I'm fine either way.As long as the Fallout 3 part stays as original as possible to the actual game.

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Why make it part of the core?

Why make it part of the core? Perhaps to cut down on the # of plugins, but that's the only apparent reason to someone like me. Given there's a rebuild of the installer in progress, depending on it's sophistication, i could see it building up the main files in the initial phase, and then building up a single "optional" package à la carte depending on what options are chosen in the installer. Time will tell.

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You can always merge plugins

You can always merge plugins if you're worried about plugin count. 

tawatabak
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i dont mind plugin count

i dont mind plugin count

but if it makes converting fallout 3 mods to ttw easier, then yeah make it core

opens more possibilities 

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@EnderDragonFire You've

@EnderDragonFire You've stated your opinion several times. If you search for RFCW, you can find it, there's no added pickables, food for hardcore mode, train station, or any other feature creep. Of course it's also quite buggy and incompatible with everything, and completely unbalanced... but you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Speaking of merging plugins, that's my idea to make optionals use injected records into TTW's esm at unique ids so a custom xEdit script can be used to directly integrate optionals into it and allow people to tailor their experience. It creates incompatibility issues to a degree, and one of the reasons I've chosen to put bug fixes directly into TTW so that no external mod is needed for such things except for YUP for New Vegas end of things (except what YUP doesn't address). There is also a *lot* of broken stuff in Fallout 3 that no one has ever fixed, and I enjoy doing that. However I don't want to work on multiple projects anymore so I'm making what I do completely open and bug fix projects can just take what I do and back port it to Fallout 3 or for Fallout NV if they want.

Anyway this has become more of an argument rather than a pros and cons discussion.

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I apologize for making it

I apologize for making it into an argument, that was not my intent. I will admit my posts were a little redundant, and I will refrain from posting anything else in this thread. I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

I assure you that all of my comments were posted with the earnest intent to provide constructive feedback. Feel free to delete my comments if you think they are unconstructive.

"Who are you, who do not know your history?"

RoyBatty
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We understand your position,

We understand your position, and take everyones opinions into consideration. I won't delete your comments at all, just wanted you to chill out a bit.

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I say don’t do it, whit the

I say don’t do it, whit the strength requirement for weapons it makes it irrelevant and kind of redundant. And I bet it will create problems with mods and will make the game feel less unified.

And by problems I don’t mean incompatibility, I know it will not break any mod, what I mean is; mods that work with weapon skills in mind or make the skills part of their calculation will not affect those weapons, that skill will be ignored.

I strongly disagree with the idea. I say don’t add the skill, or make it optional.  

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W0lfwang wrote:

W0lfwang wrote:

 

I say don’t do it, whit the strength requirement for weapons it makes it irrelevant and kind of redundant. And I bet it will create problems with mods and will make the game feel less unified.

And by problems I don’t mean incompatibility, I know it will break any mod, what I mean is; mods that work with weapon skills in mind or make the skills part of their calculation will not affect those weapons, that skill will be ignored.

I strongly disagree with the idea. I say don’t add the skill, or make it optional.  

Why dont you want it optional? It's not like it's gonna hurt to have it that way.Dont want to use it then you dont have to.

W0lfwang
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Yea, I meant if they want to

Yea, I meant if they want to bring it back, make it optional “or make it optional.” Sorry if I wasn’t clear, English is not my first language. Bu I do think that add it as mandatory is a bad idea.

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13 in favor of including it

13 in favor of including it in the "Base Game"

29 in favor of it being an Optional

I have been thinking about this for a while now, so I could form my own opinion (if anyone remembers, I said I didn't have one somewhere in this thread before). I reached a conclusion, and I now have an opinion.

But I would like to know from more of you (specially the pros and cons of each side) before I say which I think is better (in my opinion). I would probably end up with a giant wall of text explaining why I reached my conclusion .

 

So... Keep it coming!

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This sounds both awesome, and

This sounds both awesome, and easy to mitigate issues if they arise. I'm all for this! Would restore a lot of functionality with a lot of Fo3 mods that have already been ported over too.

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