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jaassu
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Around Arefu all trees have weird duplicate

TTW 2.2a

As seen in this screenshot:

Category: 

Bug report

Component: 

Graphics

Priority: 

Normal

Status: 

Closed (merged)

Project: 

Tale of Two Wastelands

Version: 

TTW 2.0

Reporter: 

jaassu

Created: 

Tue, 04/23/2013 - 04:41

Updated: 

Tue, 12/24/2013 - 09:07
Edited by: JaxFirehart on 12/24/2013 - 09:07
Risewild
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The tree LOD it's a known

The tree LOD it's a known problem and a fix is being worked on .

chucksteel
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as Riswild said it's a known

as Riswild said it's a known issue and it's killing me!!!!!!!! I will get it fixed in time. 

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Issue changes: 

Status: Unverified » Verified
JaxFirehart
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I believe this is fixed, but

I believe this is fixed, but we recently changed BSA formats again and it may have been broken. If that's the case Chuck is going to kill me...

JaxFirehart
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I am currently using Vurts

I am currently using Vurts flora and this is a problem, can anyone confirm that it is/isn't a problem in an unmodded game? 

thermador
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There's nothing wrong in my

There's nothing wrong in my unmodded 2.4 game.  I went to Arefu and checked out all the trees, and found some of those exact ones in the picture.

However, NMC's will mess up those trees in the same way, and so will Vurt's flora, apparently.

Leaving the bug report open for now, because it would be nice to know how to fix this - a lot of people use NMC's and/or Vurts. 

We need to figure out what LOD file or whatever it is that NMCs/Vurts adds that needs to be manually deleted after an NMCs/Vurts installation.

chucksteel
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The LOD files that should

The LOD files that should need to be deleted from verts or NMC's texture pack are Textures\Landscape\LOD\Wasteland\Trees.

JaxFirehart
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Thanks chuck. You mind

Thanks chuck. You mind explaining how to rebuild the Tree LOD for those of use that use NMC/Vurt?

chucksteel
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I haven't used verts Does it

I haven't used verts Does it have an .esp or .esm? 

For NMC's You would first remove the Tree files then load up the GECK open World\World LOD and only Generate the trees. This should rebuild the files using NMC's Textures. 

If Verts has an .esm or .esp load it in GECK and do the same as above. 

Don't try to Generate the Meshes or textures for the entire wasteland the GECK will just freeze and you'll waste your time. 

JaxFirehart
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Thanks Chuck!

Thanks Chuck!

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Issue changes: 

Status: Verified » Closed (merged)
Issue summary: Old » New
TJ
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Yeah awesome, I'll have to

Yeah awesome, I'll have to give Vurts another shot now. It looked pretty slick, other than the whole LOD.

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Thanks Chuck.  I put a link

Thanks Chuck.  I put a link to this thread in the FAQ under the "NMC's" section...

chucksteel
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forgot to say (If you don't

forgot to say (If you don't have one) You'll need to set up a Source folder which lives outside of the FNV folder so Steam apps\common\Source inside this folder you'll also need to set up this file path. Source\Textures TGA\Landscape\LOD. Once the tree LOD is generated you have to move the created textures back to Data\Textures\Landscape\LOD\wasteland\Trees. 

thermador
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Long term, it would be

Long term, it would be awesome if Jax could program the installer with an option to download and install NMC's and Vurts for both wastelands, and then make the appropriate corrections to the LOD etc.  

Pie in the sky I know, but a man can dream...

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Hi, it seems i have miss


Hi, it seems i have miss something.

When i try to generate LOD, the Geck create the good folders inside the "source folder" but with nothing inside them...

Can i ask for some help? please :)

 

Edit: I did it and i get some new LOD and a new folder: "LODSetting". But it doesn't seems to change anything, i still have some troubles with the LOD. I just don't use LOD file instead :(

 

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I have TTW vanilla and near

I have TTW vanilla and near the entrance of the garage in which is the valt 112 I have the tree's LOD problem. I've tried everything, regenerated the LOD information's, gone to Megaton inside my house, waited three days, returned, problem still present...

I've unpacked the _lod.nif meshes of the trees from fallout3.esm (original), made conversions of the tree textures in tgaa and moved in proper source folder. GeneratedI tree lod with geck... is it supposed to be sufficient?

To do so i've Changed the flag has tree lod in the tree window in geck (Otherwise geck does not generates any lod). Doing so i've noted that some dead trees do not have lod.nif mesh.. Could be this the reason for my failure?

Some ideas?

Bye,

J

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I'm getting the doubled tree

I'm getting the doubled tree thing even after removing the vurt's tree LODs :\

alloutwillie
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I'm going to try convert this

I'm going to try convert this myself, and delete the LODs as Chuck said. But does anyone know how to address the ini file changes outlined by vurt for the FO3 version?

 

From Vurt "below [Grass] in your fallout.ini make sure you have; iMinGrassSize=40 and iMaxGrassTypesPerTexure=6 otherwise you won't see all grasses and plants. "

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I did it but no effect. The

I did it but no effect. The problem persists.

No clue on how to solve it. Quite boring... I solved (but it is not the best solution at all) by replacing the treedeadlod.dds file (in textures\landscape\trees) with an empty file.

This removes the duplicate but also the lod trees. You will have less details in the distance but better view of near trees. You can also balance this a bit by raising the distance at with trees are replaced by LOD trees. It can be FPS impacting...

Hope this helps,

JD

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Desperate to see this fixed,

Desperate to see this fixed, can't seem to get the lod's to work no matter what I do. I hope someone figures it out and gives a step by step instruction on how to do it. It's nearly impossible for me to play FO3 without Vurst Flora Overhaul anymore D:

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I just did a fresh install

I just did a fresh install willow, and perk per level modds, NO texture pack this time. I did reload my old save though. and I got them outside casey's garage.

 

enneract
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This is totally not fixed,

This is totally not fixed, and should not be marked as such. It occurs with or without any additional texture mods.

chucksteel
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I've fixed this issue about

I've fixed this issue about 20 times now! each time it get's harder and for some odd reason the original fix doesn't take. I'm betting it has to do with the BSA load order that jax and rise have been looking into. 

enneract
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I've got a pretty heavily

I've got a pretty heavily modded configuration going at the moment, but I made pains not to install any LOD textures at all. I've spent the last several hours checking that no plugins are touching the tree objects (has LOD flag etc), and that no BSAs other than Fallout - Textures contain any tree LODs for the wasteland worldspace. 

I can confirm that this issue occurs with nothing touching tree LODs other than a default TTW installation.

Incidentally, what does a plausible 'fix' for this look like, anyway? No tree LODs at all? Correctly functioning tree LODs?

chucksteel
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correctly functioning TREE

correctly functioning TREE LOD! What else would you expect. 

what your not getting is we fix the issue and pack the fix up into our BSA it breaks in the next update. this has to do with BSA load order not the fix itself. Another example would be the missing mesh issue we keep having. 

Also there is no need to confirm that this is an issue! We know it happens even if you don't add mods that affect LOD. 

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Why even bundle the BSA's at

Why even bundle the BSA's at all, then? 

Risewild
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enneract wrote:

enneract wrote:

 

I've got a pretty heavily modded configuration going at the moment, but I made pains not to install any LOD textures at all. I've spent the last several hours checking that no plugins are touching the tree objects (has LOD flag etc), and that no BSAs other than Fallout - Textures contain any tree LODs for the wasteland worldspace. 

I can confirm that this issue occurs with nothing touching tree LODs other than a default TTW installation.

Incidentally, what does a plausible 'fix' for this look like, anyway? No tree LODs at all? Correctly functioning tree LODs?

The bug tracker is for only unmodded TTW bugs, so all the issues found here are issues that happen regardless of any external mod being used .

This issue IS FIXED, the problem is that the fix doesn't show in game (with most certainty) due to (like Chuck said) the BSA loading order issue with Fallout New Vegas. The fix is there, but Fallout New Vegas loads it and then overwrite it with other files from a different BSA causing the issue once more, me and Jax have been extensively losing countless of hours trying to find out how and why Fallout New Vegas loads the BSA the way it does and to find a way to fix, or make it work with it, but we are not alone, many other team members are helping too. On the other hand Chuck has lost countless hours himself trying to fix this issue all over and over to no avail due to also that BSA load order issue from Fallout New Vegas.

So to sum it up it, this bug is fixed, Fallout New Vegas way for loading BSA files is not .

chucksteel
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enneract wrote:

enneract wrote:

 

Why even bundle the BSA's at all, then? 

 

Well first because we can't legally upload loose files! Secondly because we are trying to understand and make things right in the long run. 

If you think you can do a better job then more power to you! Good luck! 

enneract
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chucksteel wrote:

chucksteel wrote:

enneract wrote:

 

Why even bundle the BSA's at all, then? 

 

 

Well first because we can't legally upload loose files! Secondly because we are trying to understand and make things right in the long run. 

If you think you can do a better job then more power to you! Good luck! 



I think you missed the point of my question. Why bother recompressing the extracted assets back into BSA archives, if the load order of these BSAs is such an issue. This (obviously) isn't skyrim, but the accepted practice amongst the 'informed' (for lack of a better term) is to extract any BSAs and use MO to manage overwrites. I do not know of any compelling functional reason to actually use BSAs, other than for organizational purposes (and if I am ill informed on this, please correct me.)

Additionally, asking a question, especially when so much information is being held close to the chest by the dev team, does not constitute an opinion that the asker can 'do a better job'. Nobody outside of the 'inner circle' knows wtf is going on here, and anyone trying to figure it out is flailing in the dark. 
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Because we have made the

Because we have made the decision to make TTW as easy to use as possible! This goes for the Newest NOOB or the experienced mod user. This means keeping everything packed up in BSA's. 

I may be coming off as a bit miffed by you but it's because your also coming off as entitled! Yes there is a bug it's a small graphics bug that doesn't impact game play what so ever. I personally have probably worked on this particular bug for over 100 hours. Now others are working on solving the real cause! We put a lot into this project if you haven't noticed. 

Additionally, The team is not keeping anything close to our chests! Do some reading on the forums! We involve the community in most of the depictions we make and even the source code of the installer is open source! 

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enneract wrote:

enneract wrote:

SNIP

 

Like I said in chat, maybe you could have worded the question better.

First paragraph is refuted by: not everyone uses Mod Organizer.

I dont know what the shiggydiggy the second paragraph is supposed to mean. When you say "here" do you mean about this particular issue? Or do you mean something more to do with BSAs? I dont know what "flailing in the dark" is supposed to mean or what its in reference to. I dont know what you think is being "held close to the chest".

From my limited understanding, the actual problem is solved by generating the LODs. Also from my limited understanding, Chuck did this and it got packed in the BSA and now it doesnt work. This (among other issues) is suspected to be caused by a problem with the manner and order in which the engine loads BSAs. Since we dont know 100% whats going on (or at lease, I dont think we do yet) we dont have a 100% absolutely perfect solution. Yet.

Enjoy your pointless pout.

 

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Blaming using .bsa archives,

Blaming using .bsa archives, and by extension indicting the development team for using them (as if there were some more obvious, better solution that isn't known about or that isn't being perused) doesn't help solve your issue. The team is primarily interested in finding solutions that work for everyone, not just for one user who's looking for a quick fix. It's unfortunate that so far there doesn't seem to be a quick fix for this issue. 

Whatever you've heard or know about using MO to manage loose files doesn't describe best practice or even an average TTW user. There are at least three different mod managers floating around and TTW should be compatible with each one of them. A user shouldn't need to know more than how to activate a .fomod and barring that, how to follow the directions for how to complete a manual install in order to play the game. 

As has been pointed out to you innumerable times in the chat and in this thread, the team is currently looking at the load order of .bsa archives as the culprit which seems to be affecting this as well as creating other issues in the most recent alpha release. It's unfortunate that you don't feel like helping out, but we can't force you to either.

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If ya'll want to go crazy

If ya'll want to go crazy defensive on this, that is certainly your prerogative. I'm not sure where any of you got this idea that I was trying to be accusatory about anything, or trying to convey any idea other than 'if BSA load order is such a problem, why use BSA when alternatives exist to ensure exactly the assets you want to get loaded?'. This isn't intended as an attempt to show how smart I am, or that I know how to do something better - I was literally asking why this is a bad idea. I've now gotten some answers about how it makes things 'easier to use', cool.

Apparently I've given the wrong impression on my attitude, or something, but I truly don't understand the overwhelming hostility that I'm receiving. I'm a scientist by training and vocation, and oftentimes the most useful questions are those which you expect a negative answer to. Most of the questions I've asked, either here or in the chat, have been with the goal of becoming informed as to why my assertion is incorrect or flawed; mostly what I've gotten are vague pieces of information (BSA load order issue!), and any attempt at clarification (What is the intended load order?\Why not just extract the files?) met with the equivalent of 'shut up noob, if you think you can do it better than us than good luck!'. 

Incidentally, extracting the lod assets from */landscape/lod/wasteland/*  and */lodsettings/*from 'Fallout 3 - Textures.bsa', 'Fallout 3 - Meshes.bsa', and 'TaleofTwoWastelands.bsa', overwriting with the small number of lod meshes (no lod textures or lodsettings are present) from the latter *does not* solve this. It worked temporarily, after doing the 'wait 3 days in an interior, then pcb' thing, but improper LODs returned upon reloading that save.  I'm likely missing something (and I truly mean those four words - perhaps a non-public version has updated lod data that the released version does not? perhaps there is additional lod data in the archives that I don't know to look for?), but from my understanding, if that doesn't work, BSAs being parsed in the intended order won't either. *shrug*.

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Shut up noob. ( That's a joke

Shut up noob. ( That's a joke, don't get offended)

Here's the clearest answer I can give you: First of all, the public version was released 6 days ago. We're still working with more or less the same data set you are. Secondly - for the BSAs: You, like most everybody else probably ignored where we said "Clean FO3 and FNV". If TTW came with a large quantity of loose files, and you had a ton of texture packs installed- we'd have killed them off as soon as you installed. Likewise, if you didn't ignore that and then later proceeded to install texture packs, you'd be overwriting TTW's files with no way to get them back without running the installer again. It's easier for you to have TTW assets in a bsa cause that. It's easiest for us cause you (or others) don't come griping with the 'u broke ma game111' when something happens and files start coming up missing. With files in BSAs it's easier to keep track of what plugin they belong to. And also when the files are packed in bsas like bethesda does we don't look like noobs building a half assed mod.

As far as your attitude, that's easy "You're holding something close to your chest" "No we're not, if we were we'd tell you" "You must be holding back the LOD fixes cause I did this and this and this and it didn't matter".

Look: LOD, like any number of other things in this game is tricky. Everytime something happens that changes it... it has to be re-generated. Not unpacked then repacked or unpacked and ran as loose files, re-generated.

This probably comes off as me being an ass, which I am (an ass, not intentionally being an ass), but that's not my intention. I hope I've enlightened you on at least some of your questions. If you have more or need any other info request here and I'll elaborate.

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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

As far as your attitude, that's easy "You're holding something close to your chest" "No we're not, if we were we'd tell you" "You must be holding back the LOD fixes cause I did this and this and this and it didn't matter".

Look: LOD, like any number of other things in this game is tricky. Everytime something happens that changes it... it has to be re-generated. Not unpacked then repacked or unpacked and ran as loose files, re-generated.

 

Ah, that explains things. Again, a misunderstanding; I've never meant to give the impression that I was accusing anyone of capriciously holding back a magical fix. If anything, I've experienced an unwillingness to share information about what is causing the problem, and what the claimed 'already solved' solution is (ie, "Oh, its a BSA loading order error", "Ok, what is the intended order for the BSAs to load, so that extracting those files can be used as a temporary solution?", "Shut up, noob!"). So thus, 'flailing in the dark', by attempting to figure out what is going on from examining the files and trying different solutions. 

The 'I did this and this and this and it didn't matter' is simply intended to add additional data to the problem-solving effort (you know, 'helping out', that thing I've been repeatedly accused of being unwilling to do?), not to imply that anyone of lying.

I understand that LODs need to be regenerated - I've done that procedure myself. It produces interesting results, like when done in conjunction with vurts, you get new lod textures and lod placement for the trees that mod adds. They still don't fade as intended, though! :D

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hey, if you can fix the LOD

hey, if you can fix the LOD thing all of us would be greatful. If I remember right Chuck said to get it acting right again you'll need to bump the tree slightly in on direction then back into place, then generate. Sadly this probably needs done for every broken tree for TTW, and every tree for vurts.

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TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:

 

hey, if you can fix the LOD thing all of us would be greatful. If I remember right Chuck said to get it acting right again you'll need to bump the tree slightly in on direction then back into place, then generate. Sadly this probably needs done for every broken tree for TTW, and every tree for vurts.

this is true but Oddly enough, Also some trees in there vanilla forms don't have the "Has LOD" Flag ticked!  The first few times I fixed the issue I had to randomly change the "Has LOD" Flags and bump the trees. This was a really random thing too. One go I would change a "Has LOD" Flag and it would generate and the next time I tried it didn't fix the issue for that tree. 

Again I've put in over 100 hours trying to get a real fix we are unsure why we can't get one to stick and the best idea we have now is BSA load order. However we also don't know the best BSA load order as of yet to test to see if that would be a proper fix. 

If I came off as just blowing you off I apologize but after spending so much time on this! Getting it fixed only to see it break again I'm a bit frustrated with the bug. Also I can't tell you how many people have come to me personably complaining about the issue thinking it's so simple of an issue "why the hell have you guys not taken care of it"! 

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Yeah, I can honestly say

Yeah, I can honestly say Chuck has been fighting this since TTW's inception.

enneract
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Either take this info or

Either take this info or ignore it, I don't care, but I'm reasonably confident that this isn't a BSA load order issue, nor does it have to do with spurious 'has LOD' flags.

Tonight I rebuilt a TTW package, used MO to install it, extracting the BSAs, and then copied the plugin files directly into my real NV directory and added chucksteel's LODpackages (both FO3 and NV, with FO3 paths appropriately modified) from the nexus. I then regenerated the LOD with a variety of different 'has LOD' configurations. With the (TTW) default configuration, duplicates were limited to one tree type, but this was only because all LOD except that tree were not present at all. It is interesting to note that the LOD generated in this config was not the same as in either taleoftwowastelands.bsa or fallout 3 - meshes.bsa. Adding back in additional 'has LOD' flags for those trees with LOD meshes present (from chucksteel's packages) produced more LOD, but the LOD and the static object never seem to become connected, and thus the duplication.

This behavior is referenced rarely on the internet, and is regarded as an engine bug associated with *deleted* trees, with the solution being to modify the tree in the GECK before generating tree LODs. This would be an utterly daunting project, and frankly it might make more sense to try to take the DTL file format apart and try to correct the error with a script. My suspicion here is that each of the lod object meshes is supposed to be associated with a particular id of a static object mesh, and for whatever reason (a bug in geck?) this is not happening.

I did, however, get some very interesting results by replacing the lod meshes with the full detail versions. Not perfect, but definitely improved. I have no idea how much of this is rehash of what is already known, but thought it may be of use.

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Thanks for the research

Thanks for the research enneract. It's all news to me. Can you link the package from chucksteel you used? I'm thinking that perhaps it doesn't have the necessary assets from FO3. Thus the missing FO3 LOD.

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In the GECK are you

In the GECK are you generating trees from the World LOD menu or generating objects?

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I have made two LOD packages

I have made two LOD packages the FNV one definitely doesn't have the trees because they didn't come with FNV. 

LOD pack FO3

LOD pack NV

enneract
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Amended my post, I initially

Amended my post, I initially posted it on my phone, which added typos and killed my formatting.

 

TrickyVein wrote:

In the GECK are you generating trees from the World LOD menu or generating objects?

Trees. If I was supposed to be generating objects, that is a whole new kettle of fish, and explains a lot of my failure.

 

JaxFirehart wrote:

 

Thanks for the research enneract. It's all news to me. Can you link the package from chucksteel you used? I'm thinking that perhaps it doesn't have the necessary assets from FO3. Thus the missing FO3 LOD.



I was using a composite of both the files that chunksteel linked. However, I doubt it was an issue of missing any meshes, as the LOD generation fails verbosely if you are missing any required assets.
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If someone could double-check

If someone could double-check my on this, because I really don't like the implications, that would be great...

I can't find any vanilla FONV tree lod data, at all. No DTL files.

FONV trees appear to be part of the Object LOD system.

My working hypothesis is that Obsidian broke 'Tree LOD' during NV development, and just generated their trees as Objects instead, and if we want this to work in the FO3 section of the game, we'll need to do the same. I'll start work on this after work today.

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Confirmed. I found not .dtl

Confirmed. I found not .dtl files whatsoever in FNV.

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Yeah, Obsidian created their

Yeah, Obsidian created their worldspace differently. It's not wrong, necessarily. There's no reason to think they couldn't have also included tree lod data in New Vegas. Instead they lumped everything together in object LOD.

You probably want to read up on generating object LOD before doing anything because there's one big caveat to doing it this way in DC as opposed to generating trees (which is the way that Chuck has been doing it up to this point and which has worked in the past). At least, to save yourself frustration.

Basically, I don't think it's possible.

I haven't read anywhere that anyone has been able to generate object LOD for the DC wasteland. Can someone say this is wrong? I'd be glad if anyone could. Anyway, If it is possible, then touching every single LOD object in the wasteland might cause more headaches than just a few floating trees. 

It would not be the preferred solution, IMO but more power to you if you want to work on this.

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I have been able to create

I have been able to create object LOD for the TTW version of the DC wasteland. The Object LOD are nif files so error checking is fairly easy.

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That's pretty cool. 

That's pretty cool. 

What was it for? Is the atlas texture still 2048x1024? Any issues?

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TrickyVein wrote:

TrickyVein wrote:

Yeah, Obsidian created their worldspace differently. It's not wrong, necessarily. There's no reason to think they couldn't have also included tree lod data in New Vegas. Instead they lumped everything together in object LOD.

You probably want to read up on generating object LOD before doing anything because there's one big caveat to doing it this way in DC as opposed to generating trees (which is the way that Chuck has been doing it up to this point and which has worked in the past). At least, to save yourself frustration.

Basically, I don't think it's possible.

I haven't read anywhere that anyone has been able to generate object LOD for the DC wasteland. Can someone say this is wrong? I'd be glad if anyone could. Anyway, If it is possible, then touching every single LOD object in the wasteland might cause more headaches than just a few floating trees. 

It would not be the preferred solution, IMO but more power to you if you want to work on this.

 

Let me preface my response with a caveat that I'm meaning no disrespect toward any on the TTW team, chucksteel in particular. This took me a while to notice, and the primary reason why I'm willing to leap to this conclusion is the sheer amount of time that those more experienced have already spent working on this. Bayesian reasoning, and all that.


I don't think the tree LOD has ever worked in TTW. Looking at the comments that have been made in publically accessible venues about working on this issue in regard to TTW, it really looks like the main 'fix' has been disabling 'tree has lod' flags on tree statics, and then regenerating the tree LOD. The result of this is simply a reduction in tree LODs, not a relative reduction in the non-fading LOD bug.

There are still *some* tree LODs, so unless you are paying close attention to which trees have LODs and which don't, you don't really notice the decrease, but the fact remains that for any tree with a LOD, that LOD does not fade with proximity. This issue becomes extremely noticeable if you return the 'has tree lod' flags to their 'proper' (stock fo3) settings, because almost all trees have LOD at that point.

I'm reasonably confident that all the fixes thus far have simply been a matter of perception, confirmation bias, and the fact that the functioning of the Tree LOD system in NV does seem to *sporatically* work (I've experienced instances where changing the 'has tree LOD' setting in a plugin file actually fixes the issue... for one reload). I have TTW 2.4 install files still laying around on my NAS, and those produce the same set of issues. If you turn on 'has tree LOD' for a type of tree and regenerate, you get working but bugged LODs, if you turn it off, you get no LOD for that tree.

The simple fact is that we have absolutely no examples of working tree lod data from any first-party source for FONV. This system is relatively simple to use compared to Object LODs, and there is very little conceivable reason for it to be not used (when it was used extensively in FO3), unless it got broken at some point. There is plenty of evidence for broken code in FONV (see the existence of NVAC, for examples). The idea that the NV tree lod system is broken explains quite a few things; no dtl data in fonv, missing tree lod meshes for fo3 assets (but almost all other fo3 assets in place, including apparently all object lod assets?), and the total lack of many experienced modders being able to make tree lods work reliably in fonv in particular. None of these data points is compelling in of themselves, but I feel that when taken together, a case can be made.

Of course, this hypothesis makes a prediction (no one will be able to make a consistently working tree lod for the wasteland or wastelandnv worldspaces), and I would be overjoyed for it to be demonstrated incorrect. I'm not saying that using Object LOD for trees is the preferred solution, an easy solution, or without its own problems - but I highly suspect that it is the *only* solution.

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