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JaxFirehart
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Should TTW Require NVSE

I have been constantly running into issues that could be easily solved by using NVSE. I have found work-arounds in order to ensure maximum compatibility, but I am to the point where NVSE just makes everything SO much easier. So what I want to know is: how many people have a problem with TTW requring NVSE?

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Fruckert
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I can definitely see a lot of

I can definitely see a lot of people having a problem with this, because it's not vanilla, but NVSE is so ingrained in modding New Vegas right now anyways that I don't think it'd have any significantly negative impact on anything.

I mean, I'm personally using it anyways, so why not? If it'll help, it helps.

And like, other stuff, I guess.

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JaxFirehart
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Well I can guarantee that the

Well I can guarantee that the adherence to keeping things vanilla will remain. For example, when you enter the Pitt in FO3 you can keep either a knife or the .32 Revolver. This is similar to FNV's holdout weapon procedure. I implemented the holdout weapon procedure, but you are also allowed to keep all of your ammo, which makes the pitt a bit of a cake walk.

With NVSE I can ensure that you don't take more than 1 clip's worth of ammo for each holdout weapon you have.

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I personally don't use NVSE,

I personally don't use NVSE, and I know I'm not alone.  NVSE may be solid, but it's still an add-on set of functions that aren't natively part of the game, and require injection.  While NVSE has a lot of benefits, the main issue I have is that, like you said, it's not strictly needed to get a lot of this stuff done.

(Actually using your example of the holdout weapon confiscation routine, I can think of a very solid, reliable way to do the same effect without using any NVSE functions.  In fact, even if I had NVSE I wouldn't use any of its special functions to do what you're describing; between RemoveAllTypedItems and GetItemCount there's not much point.)

Now I'm not saying that I'm opposed to the idea at all, and maybe if you gave me some different specifics where you're bashing your head into a wall I'd say NVSE is necessary.  Right now though I think it's something we can do without, and anything which makes this already complicated-to-install mod simpler is a good thing in my mind.

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Well I would say use NVSE,

Well I would say use NVSE, many popular mods require it already so I guess many users are familiar with it.

The only problem is the users that are not that computer savvy getting confused about how to use NVSE, but I think that since it's just a matter of "drop the files in this folder and use this .exe instead" most would get the idea quickly. There are always those that no matter what will never be able to do it properly but that already happens with TTW without NVSE anyway .

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Actually, a thought occurs to

Actually, a thought occurs to me: if NVSE opens up a way to "de-level" the Courier when they show up in NV after completing the main campaign in the CW, I'd say that warrants using NVSE.  Right now if you do the CW campaign fully, including all the DLC, you wind up with a fairly high level by the time you wake up in Goodsprings, which sort of turns all of NV (save for Lonesome Road, holy hard) into a cakewalk.

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Well I agree that there are

Well I agree that there are workarounds for the pitt holdout procedure, none of them are dynamic. What if a mod adds a new holdout weapon? How do we know how many rounds that thing can hold? What if it uses a whole new ammo type? We could require the mod authors to handle all that themselves, but then we have the issue of multiple mods fighting over that script, and getting them to work together takes some doing.

Believe me, I, too, am hesitant about adding NVSE, but it just makes development so much easier at times.

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^^^

^^^

Second this. It does not really bother me either way to require or not require NVSE, but if it does allow for changes like this, then I am all for it being required.

Actually, I use NVSE anyway, so I am not opposed to requiring it. There are a TON of mods out there that use NVSE, and that many consider "must haves" - Project Nevada  - so I suppose the argument becomes something of a moot point really quickly.

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I personally wouldn't mind,

I personally wouldn't mind, but the NVSE requirement would scare away alot of new modders I think. Though I use it, and if it would make things easier I say why not.

Call me Pat. Senterpat is too much to type.

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If it makes things easier

If it makes things easier than make NVSE a requirement, lots of people use it and it isn't difficult to install :)

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TTW requires the crap pack, I

TTW requires the crap pack, I mean couriers stash! I'm almost certain more people use NVSE than the tribal pack so, Jax, if it helps you out I'm all for it. I'm eager to get some mods crackin for the new version of this beast.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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I think most people could

I think most people could follow the instructs on how to install it or you make a video on how to install it using hypercam. I have a lot of mod that use it any way. NVSE run even it you start the game thought the luncher or you could lunch it thought Nexes Mod Manger.

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tjmidnight420 wrote:

tjmidnight420 wrote:

TTW requires the crap pack, I mean couriers stash! I'm almost certain more people use NVSE than the tribal pack so, Jax, if it helps you out I'm all for it. I'm eager to get some mods crackin for the new version of this beast.

It does?

...that shouldn't be the case.  Unless we're placing them in-world, the Courier's Stash add-ins are all controlled by a script that's present in the main, non-GOTY, no-DLC version of FNV.  Holding off on the stash packs is as easy as turning off the quest that the DLCs use to track if things have been handed out yet.

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yukichigai wrote:

yukichigai wrote:

It does?

...that shouldn't be the case.  Unless we're placing them in-world, the Courier's Stash add-ins are all controlled by a script that's present in the main, non-GOTY, no-DLC version of FNV.  Holding off on the stash packs is as easy as turning off the quest that the DLCs use to track if things have been handed out yet.

It's got a built in controller to enable/ disable each pack. I understand having them so all fallout resources are at TTW's disposal, with my main point being if NVSE will make things better for the team then definitely it should be included.

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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yukichigai wrote:

yukichigai wrote:

...that shouldn't be the case.  Unless we're placing them in-world, the Courier's Stash add-ins are all controlled by a script that's present in the main, non-GOTY, no-DLC version of FNV.  Holding off on the stash packs is as easy as turning off the quest that the DLCs use to track if things have been handed out yet.

Yep, all DLC for both games is required.  You can choose to enable the packs at the start of a new game (default state is disabled).  The point of requiring the packs is so that their content can be placed in game.

JaxFirehart wrote:

Should TTW Require NVSE ?

I vote yes. 

Most people already have it (I would guess upwards of 90%), it's easy to install, it doesn't significantly impact game performance, and it massively improves the ability to script events and fix bugs.

yukichigai
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thermador wrote:

thermador wrote:

yukichigai wrote:

...that shouldn't be the case.  Unless we're placing them in-world, the Courier's Stash add-ins are all controlled by a script that's present in the main, non-GOTY, no-DLC version of FNV.  Holding off on the stash packs is as easy as turning off the quest that the DLCs use to track if things have been handed out yet.

Yep, all DLC for both games is required.  You can choose to enable the packs at the start of a new game (default state is disabled).  The point of requiring the packs is so that their content can be placed in game.

Are we placing the items in-game?  If not, it's a spurious requirement.  Code to enable or disable the packs can be added without requiring the packs themselves.

The only reason I keep coming back to this is that Courier's Stash is the "DLC" with the least penetration.  Most people see it as kind of useless, quite a few don't have it, and requiring it is going to cause a lot more butthurt than requiring NVSE.

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There was already a lengthy

There was already a lengthy discussion many moons ago about requiring all DLC packs (and you're right, there was a lot of debate about it). 

But, that debate is over - all DLC is required, and it has been for several versions now.  Since Courier's Stash is turned off by default in-game, the only thing that those without Courier's Stash have to do is pay $0.99 for it and then make one extra mouse click in-game.  Not much of a burden.

Anyway, we should try to keep this thread on topic - i.e. NVSE.

...

Jax, one other thought on NVSE - could we make NVSE optional?  Like put some logic in the scripts like:

if (NVSE is present)

   then (some NVSE stuff)

else (NVSE is not present)

   then (best non-NVSE workaround)

endif

I don't know if that would work, but I seem to remember that there are at least some mods out there where the script extender is optional. 

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That is completely possible..

That is completely possible... I'm just lazy...

Seriously though, I will probably end up doing just that.

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I'm all for TTW requiring

I'm all for TTW requiring NVSE. I think it would open up a whole realm of new possibilities in the FO3 wasteland. Also I know most modders use the NVSE GECK so most sub-mods of TTW would require it anyways.

-Conso

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A mod only requires NVSE if
A mod only requires NVSE if you use NVSE script functions in it. You can create mods with the NVSE GECK that don't require NVSE.
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But why would you have the

But why would you have the NVSE GECK if you weren't going to utilize it to make your mods better?

-Conso

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NVSE is no big deal. Even a

NVSE is no big deal. Even a nude replacer can be more difficult regarding search and installation. Plus, TTW is a mod and tons of major mods use NVSE already.

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Use NVSE if it holds back

Use NVSE if it holds back anything AT ALL.  It should be one of the first things a New Vegas player installs when doing a fresh install anyway.  I honestly can see 0 reasons for a player not wanting to use it.

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Yep, it's a wonderful tool,

Yep, it's a wonderful tool, and if you're modding at all, you should probably download it.

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I've never run the game

I've never run the game without NVSE.
And like someone said, it's a simple matter to guard NVSE functions so a script will skip them if the player doesn't have NVSE installed. As long as the function can't be reached, the script can run and perform some other default vanilla action.

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I'd be alright with this, but

I'd be alright with this, but maybe consider integrating it rather than listing it as a requirement? The 'vanilla feel' was mentioned briefly, and installation issues notwithstanding I think automating this sort of a feature could help smooth over players' disparate background environments.

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I'm greatly looking forward

I'm greatly looking forward to 2.0, and have a rather ambitious mod set up. Integrating or requiring NVSE is what any modder should have by now, especially if they followed the tutorial you link to on the FAQ, the one by Gopher. I think NVSE is one of the first things he says to install.

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Aconagent1 wrote:But why

Aconagent1 wrote:

But why would you have the NVSE GECK if you weren't going to utilize it to make your mods better?

Because it opens with the same shortcut.

 

I'm all for using NVSE, my modding background should prove that for anyone that knows. NVSE is required in almost every one of my mods, and most of them could not have been done without what NVSE provides.

One of the reasons I would like to see NSVE is for wasteland detection. A method of determining what world spaces teh player is in. Without NVSE it's a pretty hacky method of doing lots of calls to GetInWorldspace. This isn't pretty, and isn't very friendly toward other mods. With NVSE, an extensible detection of the current wasteland location of the player, based on a single global value bit field and a few lists, can be used by any mod to detect where the player is, as well as to add on locations the player can go to (think Alton, IL among other mods).

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Raider480 wrote:

Raider480 wrote:

I'd be alright with this, but maybe consider integrating it rather than listing it as a requirement?

The author of NVSE doesn't allow people to integrate it with their mods.

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Installation of NVSE could be

Installation of NVSE could be mostly automated. Link people to the NVSE page, tell them which file to download. And then have them point the installer at the downloaded file. While everything else is going in put NVSE in.

Obviuosly if it's not detected already.

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Why not go one better and

Why not go one better and just automate the install of NVSE? Parse the NVSE website for the latest version, download it and install it. The TTW installer already does all kinds of fancy scripted stuff anyway, I don't think this is much more of a stretch.

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An NVSE requirement can only

An NVSE requirement can only benefit the scope of TTW. Why wouldn't you have NVSE installed? Perhaps if you haven't heard about it before? But apart from that, it's almost as official as the DLC's.

Yes for NVSE.

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Yes for NVSE

Yes for NVSE

I don't need to reiterate some of the points that have been mentioned already, It's a guarantee that I'll load it up whenever I do a fresh install. So many mods use it (take Grib's point about all his mods for example) and I've never noticed any impact in performance because of it.

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No offense to anyone here,

No offense to anyone here, but if you can't install NVSE yourself, you shouldn't be attempting to install something as big as TTW.  There is no reason to spend development time automating the process.

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Shadow, if they took that

Shadow, if they took that approach in everything we'd be manually extracting bsa files and patching esm's ourselves. If the decision is to require it, then I think the installer should be able to fetch and install it to smooth the end user experience as much as possible. I don't personally think it would need that much work, but then its up to whoever develops the installer.

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Well it's easy to say "Parse

Well it's easy to say "Parse the NVSE website for the latest version, download it and install it." But I haven't the foggiest how to access internet information with a program.

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I have so many arguments to

I have so many arguments to that, but I think I'll keep them to myself. :)

If this means anything though, the Skywind team decided a long time ago to use SKSE because it opens up so many more opportunities, and I think the same would be true for TTW.

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Haha, yeah I guess it is easy

Haha, yeah I guess it is easy to say, sorry I should have elaborated on how I might implement it :). I was thinking along the lines of bundling wget (http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/wget.htm) or some similar program with the installer the same way bsaopt provides bsa handling and xdelta3 provides binary patching. Use wget to retrieve the nvse page and parse it for the link then pass that to wget to grab the file.

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I don't think it's TTW's

I don't think it's TTW's responsibility to install NVSE for the player. Installing TTW is five times harder than installing NVSE, they should already know how to do it, in my opinion.

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I follow what blade is saying

I follow what blade is saying, but the main reason for the coded installer was to ensure that we are not distributing illegal files. NVSE involves downloading from the website and unzipping into your FNV folder, quick and easy. I'm not saying I won't do it, but it's pretty low priority.

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Throwing my two cents in, I

Throwing my two cents in, I think we should ok nvse. I don't see why a person would have an issue with adding it to their game.

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Blade wrote:Why not go one

Blade wrote:

Why not go one better and just automate the install of NVSE? Parse the NVSE website for the latest version, download it and install it. The TTW installer already does all kinds of fancy scripted stuff anyway, I don't think this is much more of a stretch.

Because it's impolite. ianpatt and behippo own the site, they pay for the bandwidth etc. When a person downloads the file it's a few requests, but a program could make hundreds of requests a second. Also, ian has said that there is no listed version hosted on the silverlock sites. No particular reason except that there's been no need to ever access them via program, so he never did.

I say either have the user download it and tell the installer where the file is, or tell them to install it themselves. It's probably one of the easiest things to install anyway, and the site has the full instructions.

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I have enough faith in the

I have enough faith in the community to expect them to understand the instructions "Download this zip, take all the files in it, and then put them into your New Vegas installation folder."

So, I wouldn't change the installer at all. Except for adding in extra instructions after everything's done with. With big red text, so that nobody accidentally clicks through it.

And like, other stuff, I guess.

Computer Build

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Gribbleshnibit8 wrote:

Gribbleshnibit8 wrote:

Because it's impolite. ianpatt and behippo own the site, they pay for the bandwidth etc. When a person downloads the file it's a few requests, but a program could make hundreds of requests a second. Also, ian has said that there is no listed version hosted on the silverlock sites. No particular reason except that there's been no need to ever access them via program, so he never did.

I say either have the user download it and tell the installer where the file is, or tell them to install it themselves. It's probably one of the easiest things to install anyway, and the site has the full instructions.

It depends on how it is implemented. The installer could check if a version of NVSE is installed already, if it is, prompt the user if they want to check if it is up to date or not, if not inform the user they will need it and offer to install it for them. No more requests than if the user had to do it manually. Hardly likely to drive hundreds of requests at the site a second unless hundreds of people were going to check the site anyway, having been told they would have to.

Alternatively, just bundle NVSE, the website specifically says that is allowable for large mods that provide their own installers:

"If you are making a large mod with an installer, inclusion of a specific version of NVSE is OK, but please check the file versions of the NVSE files before overwriting them, and only replace earlier versions."

I know the install is "easy", but don't underestimate how good people are at failing "easy" tasks and then creating a support burden asking questions why it doesn't work for them.

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Blade wrote:

Blade wrote:

I know the install is "easy", but don't underestimate how good people are at failing "easy" tasks and then creating a support burden asking questions why it doesn't work for them.

"People" that "fail" the "install" should ask for help from a competent adult. There's only so much TTW can do for you before the tagline becomes "We'll come to your house and play it for you too!" If you can install TTW you can surely install NVSE.


What this guy said. Seriously. If you can't  manage this you probably shouldn't be modding Fallout.

Fruckert wrote:

I have enough faith in the community to expect them to understand the instructions "Download this zip, take all the files in it, and then put them into your New Vegas installation folder."

 

"In the world of entertainment, there are very few things as good..... as Fallout."

"... That's why we're going out of our way to make our game less Fallout."

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Just because it is easy to do

Just because it is easy to do manually doesn't mean you shouldn't automate it if its required and fairly easy to automate though. Its easy to wash dishes and clothes, but I don't do that manually if I can help it. I get not bundling NVSE when the mod is a collection of files you are told to bundle off into a folder somewhere, but when so much of the install is already automated, why the hate for automating something that is being considered as a requirement? IMO installing mods for any game should strive to be as close as possible to installing a developer provided patch, the end users shouldn't be expected to know much if anything about how it all works. I'd even go so far as to advocate the installer setting the load order for all the esm's too, but that is getting of topic.

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I don't see any good reasons

I don't see any good reasons to not require NVSE. I read several gaming forums and there are always several people who have trouble installing programs. I think what is needed is a Pdf on general file management.

 

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Blade, do you know any

Blade, do you know any programming? If so what languages?

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Blade wrote:

Blade wrote:

Just because it is easy to do manually doesn't mean you shouldn't automate it if its required and fairly easy to automate though. Its easy to wash dishes and clothes, but I don't do that manually if I can help it. I get not bundling NVSE when the mod is a collection of files you are told to bundle off into a folder somewhere, but when so much of the install is already automated, why the hate for automating something that is being considered as a requirement? IMO installing mods for any game should strive to be as close as possible to installing a developer provided patch, the end users shouldn't be expected to know much if anything about how it all works. I'd even go so far as to advocate the installer setting the load order for all the esm's too, but that is getting of topic.

 

Don't you think it's a bit rude to ask for the developers to use their time on this just because you don't want to make a few clicks.

It would take more time for the developers to automate the process than for you to install it by hand. And they could use that time in more important matters.

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Joined: 10/18/2012 - 06:33
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Just did it, took longer to

Just did it, took longer to find it, download it and open it, then to apply it. I also use 4GB enabler so for the people NOT using NVSE you have no idea what your missing out on. Simply, Vanilla= plain burger, no cheese, no pickles, nothing just patty and bun, NVSE + 4GB= the works burger, Double whopper w/cheese, Big Mac, done your way, and you don't have to add mods if you don't want to. The 4 GB enabler alone is worth it!!! Loads 2-3 times better and gives better performance. Easiest way to find/get to the fallout new vegas folder is the search tool that windows has. A short video and tah-dha you've learned! YOU TUBE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-3c1a9cLL8 GophersVids

If this were the Geck, well I can't find to much on that that and or have the time play around that much. That's why I respect the Mod authors and creators and It should be their choice not ours. Also we should be happy the team took the time to do ALL OF THIS! Been fallowing since the beginning and for me couldn't help because I don't know what I'm doing half the time. Just be in the way more than helping really.

Blade
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Last seen: 4 years 3 months ago
Joined: 09/18/2012 - 07:24
Karma: 16
Jax, I know a bit of Java and

Jax, I know a bit of Java and python and could probably hack something together in C or C++ but I'm only just past the basics with them same with C# if only because it has similar syntax.

Niyu, I already have NVSE installed, I don't really care about it for myself I know what I'm doing. I'm just suggesting that if its a requirement it would be nice for the unwashed masses to not have to worry about gathering the various dependencies together beyond "Install FO3, install NV, run TTW installer". I could write a small script to grab NVSE and install it, but users having to find and run that isn't any better than having to do it manually, it would really need to be an option in the installer to have any point. For the record I am immensely impressed with the research and effort that has gone into TTW and grateful the team has continued it as they have. I'm only sorry I don't have more time to actually contribute to development, I hardly have time to fit an hour or two of gaming a week in these days.

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